30 WOLF

[Guest]

I have seen several displays of the .338 on game, including elk. DC, be honest, have you ever seen what 253 does to an Elk, after all those tungsten particles get finished blending all those organs into liquid pulp?

I have.

You have seen the 600 yd. accuracy of the Wolf, lucky as you think it is, have you shot any 5 shot groups at 600 yds. with your cannon that you would like to show us to compare?

I will bet my house on the fact that your big .338 does not have the pure accuracy of the Wolf on a Nesika. A 30 shot group might be a great statistical comparison. Lets keep it around 200 yards or so to keep the luck out of the equation.

Wyo, we are gonna need some paper targets. Maybe you should decide the range to shoot paper at to keep the Luck to a minimum.

 

[*WyoWhisper*]

Given enough heads up we can have any target you can think of...

No need for artilery rounds.. this is all about accuracy and performance for any ones pocket book...

if you're loaded go all out with a razzle dazzle custom.. or does the Rem tricked out at 1/3 the cost do the same thing with a good smith behind the lathe???

This board is full af all types from well off to just getting started... done right the data and information compiled if this thing get pulled off could be invaluable for all involved..

The altitude is @ 5000 ft.
Humidity should be @ 20 -40 %
Temp could be from 40 in the early am to 80 during peak hours
now the wind is another story...
mirage was invented here!!!

ribbing is fun.. but can you imagine if this actually happens..
all the guns, all the loads, and all the information....

every gunsmith in our neighborhoods will be busy for months after this thing....

 

[Guest]

Wyo

I think you could make it the coolest thing going. I also think that some very careful planning about the types and ranges of targets could be designed to show the strengths and weaknesses of all the systems out there.

Many people confuse precision and accuracy, they are not the same thing. Precision type shooting formats with multiple shots will favor the runners with high dollar, heavy 1,000 yard benchrest rigs. We should definitely include this type of shooting. It will be just as important to include some unknown range one shot events, which often happen at long range. Not everyone gets to hunt animals that lay around for hours, and do not care if you fire spotters at them. Often hunters find game on the move to or from a feeding or bedding area, and you may only get one shot, or none if you do not produce it in a reasonable time frame.

So I think a mix as DC suggested would be the most interesting for the largest number of shooters.

P.S. Got an extra long bed somewhere on the ranch, I want to get my reservation in early?

 

[Charles A]

Ric, if you wouldnt mind I would like to come up. It will have to be before Oct. because I have a training cycle from Oct till Jan. The tommohawk will be ready by then,(and maybe something else

).

 

[texas]

Man what did I start

? First it was the Family Reunion now

the shootout of the year. Glad to hear it. So are we moving the date from late Aug, early Sep to what? I'm coming my boss knows already.

Ric thanks again for the open invite!

S1,DC,Chris,Brent and everyone else that can make it would love to meet you all and get to know the faces that go with the guns

.

Now we just have to wait until the big event to see what happens.

 

[Guest]

Howdy Texas

It would be great to meet you in Wyoming, I bet I can talk STL_ Shooter into coming too.

I put my vote in for Mid August, that ought to make those W872 boys sweat a little, even if they don't perspire their favorite powder will!

Well, I guess I gotta go find some rocks to pack, better to have and not need....?

P.S. Do the rules at Williamsport even allow mirage, is mirage legal in the eastern States?

 

[Boyd Heaton]

S1,I won't be using WC872.I save that powder for deer killin.

 

[Darryl Cassel]

S1

My cannon is for ultra longrange hunting ONLY.
Other then shooting at 100 yds to break the rifle in and then several shots that were one ragged hole (100 yds), I have only fired it at Williamsport one time.
It put 10 shots into 7 3/4 " at 1022 yds.
If you want to try something, shot yours at 1000 yds for Group instead of 500 or 600.

If you want to go 30 shots at 1000 yds or further that would be for me, how about you?
How about 10 shots at 1000, 10 shots at 1500 and 10 shots at 2000?

like I've said in the past, we use the spotter shot method when hunting. We are so far away the animals are never in a hurry to leave the area on the far mountain. we NEVER have to worry or hurry for a first shot kill or hit.
At the range we hunt, the one shot, first shot method would not be to our advantage and may cause non killing wounds to the animals if we made a bad shot.

So far, no animal has gotten away from us out west that we shot at. The longest to date is 2100 yds.

If your going to tell me you can judge the wind and make a first shot hit "everytime" at 1800 yards, I will say "show me" and "I'm" not from Missouri.
This is why we use the spotter shot method at the ranges we hunt.
Maybe we are not good enough for 1st round kills at 1800 yds. Show me someone who is "consistantly."

Later
DC

 

[Guest]

DC

I think your eyes might be going, what I wrote was: we have made 1 shot kills out past 1,900 in certain wind conditions. I have missed in the field, twice in recent memory.

First was a Mulie in Colorado at 725 yds. in a 40-50 Mph gusty condition from hell.

Second was a crow from over 1,040 yds. in 20 to 30 mph gusting conditions.

The ability to shoot 1 shot kills takes years to develop and thousands of rounds fired in awful conditions.

The range that your good for depends on the conditions at that moment, and I think I have covered that in quite a lot of detail.

I think the best thing for you would be to start with the bipod issue, and when we can get past that, and you can openly admit that shooting well off a bipod is not luck, not because your trying to be magnanamous, but because you have actually shot a gun off a bipod that shoots well, really well, then we will move to maybe semi-auto gas guns, that shoot really well off a bipod, off hard surfaces. And if that goes well, then we will gradually tackle this whole weighted average thing with the wind, and maybe you will see some of the fruits of your tax dollars at work, and how effective it is in certain conditions and what the technique's limitations are in more difficult conditions.

The worst thing that can happen with the system we use, is that we end up where you start, with a spotter (we call a miss) and have to take another shot. What we do is not impossible, and it is not luck, its just different than your system.

I am perplexed at your desire to shoot past 1,000 yards to determine which rifle is more accurate, since you were so adament about small groups being luck at a thousand, are you now saying that you want to induce randomness in a test designed to determine machine capability? Are we talking about rifle accuracy, or precision at long range? I don't know anyone who fires 10 shots to kill any game animal. If you truly want to determine which rifle is more accurate you are going to have to try harder to remove all that randomness from your test structure. If you want to have a tenshot benchrest match, we can do that at Williamsport on your regular schedule, no need to go to Wyo's place for that. We should do both, and publish the results.

[ 01-06-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]

[ 01-07-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]

[ 01-07-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]

 

[*WyoWhisper*]

Wow,

For some reason I couldn't get through to the board for a couple of days...

Now after reading this I have somthing to offer..

If in fact S1, DC, Dave King, Boyd, Butch or anyone else want to meet here ( DNR Ranch ) I know CJ will come... we can put these rifles to the test, compile the results and then report to the borad...

Heck bring what ever rifle you want.. make a few wagers ( a beer , prime rib supper .. first round of cocktails.. whatever..) Bring the significant other as Cody is a great place to visit...

We can shoot way way out there.. CJ has seen the spot.. he got into the 1K club there...

Perfect spot elevated flat top hill about 45 min from my door, looking into the distance to about 1.5 miles.... first 2 hours of sunlight offer no mirage...

Offers on the table I'm waiting.......

[ 01-06-2003: Message edited by: *WyoWhisper* ]

 

[Boyd Heaton]

Ric,you KNOW I'm game.........But with all those BIG BAD WOLF'S hanging around.Kinda make's me feel like Little Red Riding Hood

 

[Darryl Cassel]

S1

You are the one that keeps talking about 500 and 600 yd shooting for group if my memory serves me corectly. Why not 1000 yds, 500 and 600 is about half as hard isn't it? Takes some of the "luck" out of it at shorter range, don't you think?

When I spoke of 10 shots at each of the longer ranges, it was for ringing the steel plates Wyo spoke about. We can make it 5 if you wish.
To be honest, If I want strong competition instead of a "fun" shoot and get together to exchange ideas, I'll just stay in PA and shoot at Williamsport or other 1000 yd ranges and then go west for longrange elk and deer hunting in late October and early November.

I can appreciate your work on the bipod issue and do not think it is impossible to do after your explanation. I doubt very much however that it is as accurate as a good adjustable front and rear rest system as used for 1000 yard competitions. I'm sure you may agree with that statement?

I just feel that, at the ranges and the amount of shots I mentioned--1000 1500 and 2000, the 338/416 with 300 gr bullets will be a better choice then any 30 cal going.
The 240 gr 30 cal does well in the improved 300 RUM or 30/378 or 30/416 Rigby Imp with long barrels, but not as good as the 300gr 338 from what I have seen so far.
Maybe your on to something with the bullets you mentioned?

I don't agree with a "miss" when using the spotter round tecnique. In your work, possible the goal for one shot hits is very high and yes, thats our tax payer money at work.
Since the spotter is fired quite far from the animal to not scare it off the mountain, the scope in essence had never been held on the animal to begin with when the rifle was fired.
Hence, not a 1st round miss in "my book." Just a very accurate scope adjustment BEFORE the shot at the animal.

In reality, I would like to go to Rics place in Wyo and probably in the fall, for hunting (mainly) like antelope or PDs. Maybe some steel plates mixed in. As you mentioned, ball powder is at it's worse in hot weather.

If this does come about, I'm sure "many" of us will be ringing steel at various ranges as Ric said.

I wanted to ask you, you mentioned borrowing Howards reamer, is the Wolf Cartridge like the short Wolfe Round? Take a disregard I just went back and found out what the 30 Wolf was---

"The 30 Wolf is a .338 Lapua Magnum case necked down to 30 caliber with a blown out shoulder. Some, obviously, call it a 30/338 Lapua."

By the way, Howard Wolfe is still going to most of the matches at Williamsport. He built my first 6.5/300 Weatherby and acouple 7/300 Weatherbys for me. He also did some 300 Weatherby rifles I have had over the years.
They all shot very well at the Williamsport range and for LR hunting.

You asked what gives as per the records held at Williamsport. Most (not all) of those records were shot with shooters who put 10 rounds downrange in about 25 to 30 seconds before conditions changed. Some (Not all) records were fired when there was great conditions and hardly any wind. This is a rare day at Williamsport, but it does happen from time to time. As far as dopeing the wind, honestly nobody has figured it out yet in 35 years. Please come and give it a try.

Anyway, Have a good one

Later
DC

PS---Left eye has glacoma, the right (shooting eye) is still 20/20

[ 01-07-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

 

[CAM]

I would love to come up and witness this shoot. I am a welder by trade and could bring the steel or even serve coffee and donuts! Just save me a spot and say when!

DC
Thanks for the 30-378 info. Howard has worked up some loads for me and shipped my gun, just waiting to receive!

S1
The S must NOT stand for "SHORT" or do you need a long bed to sleep with a "WOLF"?
I'm really interested in this muzzle brake of yours. How big for 30-378 32" barrel?

 

[Guest]

DC

I don't know if the Wolf is the equal to the 'Big Dog' in a 10 shot scenario at 2,000. I doubt it could be, but it will be fun and educational to find out.

We have fired multiple 3 shot groups at 2,000
between 12 and 26 inches. In tactical situations, there is rarely the need or desire to shoot more than 3 shots before egress.

At 1,500 we have shot many 3 shot groups in between 7 and 10 inches. In our discipline it is the first shot that matters most, not the third.

The massive heat sink that your huge barrel creates would give it a great advantage for 10 shots, nine of which we do not need to kill at ultra long range on most days.

We carry our gear on our backs for weeks at a time, no vehicles, and it is nice to have the ability to kill, out near 2,000 from places that vehicles just do not go, at altitudes few helicopters will even fly to.

As I have told you in an email I would really like to see your system in action, but having shot in the wind for almost 30 years, I know that even firing a spotter is no guarantee that the wind won't switch before you get the next round down range. It is easy to tell at a bench rest match when this happens, because all the runners (90 percent) start cussin at the same time, ever heard that happen at Williamsport?

Cam, not as long a bed as DC will need to sleep with that monster of his. The brake thing... about 1.2" is all you need to counter the torque of that rifle with our design(Pat. Pend.) The S is for Sam. Sam is for Start A Movement (towards rifles that shoot great off a bipod)

[ 01-07-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]