28 nosler.

[Deleted member 46119]

I don't own a 338 Lapua but I have built a couple for other people. I have all the parts to build one if I wanted one except dies and could have it together tomorrow if I wanted one. I already have a 338 Edge, 2 338 Baer's and had a 338-378 Weatherby I built when Sierra came out with the 300gr SMK's nearly 20 years ago. In 30 magnum's I have a 300wm, 2 30-8mm's, 1 308 Baer, 2 30-338 Norma Imp's, a 30-378 Imp, and a 30-338 Lapua Imp. I've also had a few 300 RUM's and 30-358STA's. I've got a pretty good grasp of what things are capable of and case capacity equals velocity provided pressures and barrels are equal. I actually measured the 338 Lapua case capacity with a new case and I measured a unfired Edge case at 113.7grs. A fired Edge case is 115.9.

Swamplord posted that the 28/26 Nosler cases had 100grs of water capacity and on my scale a unfired 7 STW made from 8mm Rem Mag brass is 96.7grs. So yeah it has a couple more grains of capacity and that would amount to less than 50fps. It's not magic pixie dust stuff it's velocity based on case capacity. If you want to talk about efficiency, one of my 7-300wm does 3260fps with 162 Amax's in a 27" Schneider barrel with 73grs of H-1000 in RWS cases and the other is a 28" Benchmark and does 3290fps with the same load. RWS cases have less capacity and give up velocity to Winchester cases. The RWS cases only have 87.8grs of capacity. Lets say a 28 Nosler get's 3400fps with a 28" barrel and 162's. That means I'd get 96.7% of the velocity it get's with probably 10+ grains less powder. I'd say that's pretty efficient in comparison.

The truth of the matter is the Nosler case makes the velocity it makes based on the capacity of the case. It's not some magical mythical beast that can run as fast as a case with 10 grains more capacity. If you keep leading people on about it's mythical powers they are going to be disappointed when they meet reality.

Swamplord doesn't own a 28-Nosler, I do. It's 106.2 in Nosler brass. 100 in necked down R-P RUM brass. Like I said. the 338 is another .6 because of the bigger neck, however, you don't get to use neck capacity it occupied by the bullet. That's why in my example I made sure that each cartridge seated the bullet to the same depth and not COAL. Usable capacity may go to the xx-Nosler or LM depending on case lot, manufacturer, etc....

It's not good to argue with the guy who is holding 2 birds in his hand when you have only one in the bush.

 

[meatyrem]

That's the point I was making! I was just waiting for someone to say the 28 Nosler was going to best the 7mm Lapua...Well the 7mm Lapua has been done. They just call it the Allen Mag. Point Made is what does the Nosler do that already hasn't been done?

Gives guys another rifle to buy. And ammo all from the same company. Now I like nosler but the creation of this seems a little weak.
What does the nosler do that I can't with a loaded down 7mm RUM?

I'll have to say that I can see it fitting right between the 7mm Saum and the 7mm rum and if I could only own one I'd say I would have to go with the middle of the road and choose the one that has both qualities little less speed than the rum but more than the Saum to have one very well rounded 7mm without a belt. But already having a rum I will not change as I can have a Saum or a 28nosler or a 7 RUM full house screamer all in one cartridge.

 

[Kennibear]

A long time ago in a land far, far away...

I am just reading this thread and am surprised that this has boiled down to an efficiency argument again.

In P.O. Ackley's writings he performed an experiment to settle a similar argument raging in the late 40's about case and shoulder shapes providing ballistic advantages. Boiled down to simplicity more powder = more velocity and case/shoulder shape does not provide a VELOCITY advantage. But he did determine that the UNIFORMITY of the ballistics improved the closer the case shape resembled a golf ball. Shoulder shape had no effect including the PMVF (Powell - Miller Venturi Freebore) hotrod of the time. Weatherby based his line of cartridges on their designs.

So I guess my point is that the 28 Nosler is going to fall into the velocity charts based on the powder capacity. Need? Good question. Standard length round in a fat short case has an appeal. In a Remington Magnum length action the bullets can be seated way out there. But more velocity with less powder at the same pressure? Not in this quadrant of the Galaxy. The case is based on the original parent case the 375 Ruger. Nobody claims that cartridge matches the 375 RUM or 378 Weatherby.
So I guess I see the 28 Nolser as a standard length action 7mm STW. They are peas in a pod. But there is no "magic pixy dust" in it.

KB

 

[Deleted member 46119]

...The case is based on the original parent case the 375 Ruger
...there is no "magic pixy dust" in it.

KB

You had some sensible points so I didn't want to take up space with the entire quote. More capacity is the key. Capacity is the "magic pixy dust" in it. It's more than y'all think. I know cause I gots one.

The 28-Nosler is not based on the 375 Ruger. It is based on a 404 Jefferies/300 RUM/7mm RUM shortened and necked down but and it's a big BUT. The case walls of Nosler brass are .022 thick and the case walls of a RUM are .026 thick. Yes I cut them up to check. Real world results are that the 28-Nosler has more capacity than the STW and is only short of the LM by 5 or 6 grains but because of the throat/free bore specifications and the shorter case, more of the capacity is usable in the Nosler design. The result is that the available for powder capacity in the Nosler design is about 1 grain more than the Lapua with the same bullet at the same seating depth, not COAL, but the amount of bullet into the neck.

I ain't making it up. I have a 277/26-Nosler, 284/26-Nosler (aka 28-Nosler) 308/26-Nosler, 338/26-Nosler, 300 RUM, 338 Edge and lots more normal chamberings.

What I don't have is a 338 Lapua Magnum, I have everything but the dies and reamer. Ain't gonna build one to prove this argument. I can get my buddy's ballistics and fired cases to confirm the data in QuickLoad. Heck, he'd probably loan me his rifle and dies of it were to prove an amicable argument. He's a retired attorney and loves this kind of stuff.

 

[meatyrem]

Lapua -114gr
Rum-110gr
Roughly, and the nosler is one or two grains shy of the rum?

 

[SteveBurton]

So with all this arguing over what wildcat cartridge has what case capacity and achieves what velocity, I go back to the original question of what "hole" does the 28 Nosler fill? It's a factory loaded round that is bigger than the 7mm RM and runs neck and neck with the 7mm RUM. If Nosler can keep up with production better than Remington can, then they win.

So while the majority of people on this site reload themselves, there are 10 times as many shooters/hunters that don't. That's the hole.

I don't have a 7mm magnum cartridge... YET. My 28 Nosler is on order and should be finished by September.

 

[meatyrem]

Neck and neck?

 

[IdahoCTD]

By your own admission it's less capacity than a 338 Lapua and 338 Norma. I don't need to own one to know what the velocity will be like. It will be really close to a 338 Norma and less than a Lapua by your numbers. Like I said it's not magical pixie dust stuff. Next your going to tell me it's faster than the Norma even though the Norma has more capacity and is shorter so it can be throated longer. I hate to tell you but the Norma people tried to say it was the equal of the Lapua when it came out and it fell short. Besides no where in this discussion was there a loaded case length stipulation. There are 3.9+" magazines out there and 4.0" Remington style internal magazines. That is like saying a 28 Nosler is faster than a 7RUM because it fits in a 3.68" magazine. Get real man, case capacity equals speed. Even at SAAMI specs the Lapua will out run a 338/26 Nolser (A wildcat with what is obviously a longer throat) with everything but the heaviest bullets. The cool thing is Lapua brass will out last Nosler brass 3 or 4 times over at max pressure for the same cost.

I won't own one because I won't pay 2.50 a case for any Nosler brass. If it was Lapua or RWS then I might but the Nosler brass I've used hasn't been worth more than 1.00 a case and that is being generous. Besides I can neck down my 30-338 Norma Imp and out run it using 45 cent Lapua brass. Oh darn I have to use a .588 bolt to do it. Maybe it's out of contention because it doesn't use a standard magnum bolt face or maybe because it's too short and I can seat the bullets out too long. LMAO

 

[Engineering101]

Here is another "hole" that might be filled by the 28 Nosler.

You all remember when Savage changed all their rifles/magazines be they blind, hinged or DBM to use interchangeable standard parts? The frame on the DBM mag takes up space - so much so that you can't fit a SAAMI spec RUM cartridge in the mag - so Savage quit offering the RUMS and similar length (like the 375 H&H) chamberings.

I predict that Savage will start offering the XX Nosler family at some point in the near future since they will all fit in the Savage DBM. So my strategy will be to call them up and bug them to do so and then I won't have to go custom to get one.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

By your own admission it's less capacity than a 338 Lapua and 338 Norma. I don't need to own one to know what the velocity will be like. It will be really close to a 338 Norma and less than a Lapua by your numbers. Like I said it's not magical pixie dust stuff. Next your going to tell me it's faster than the Norma even though the Norma has more capacity and is shorter so it can be throated longer. I hate to tell you but the Norma people tried to say it was the equal of the Lapua when it came out and it fell short. Besides no where in this discussion was there a loaded case length stipulation. There are 3.9+" magazines out there and 4.0" Remington style internal magazines. That is like saying a 28 Nosler is faster than a 7RUM because it fits in a 3.68" magazine. Get real man, case capacity equals speed. Even at SAAMI specs the Lapua will out run a 338/26 Nolser (A wildcat with what is obviously a longer throat) with everything but the heaviest bullets. The cool thing is Lapua brass will out last Nosler brass 3 or 4 times over at max pressure for the same cost.

I won't own one because I won't pay 2.50 a case for any Nosler brass. If it was Lapua or RWS then I might but the Nosler brass I've used hasn't been worth more than 1.00 a case and that is being generous. Besides I can neck down my 30-338 Norma Imp and out run it using 45 cent Lapua brass. Oh darn I have to use a .588 bolt to do it. Maybe it's out of contention because it doesn't use a standard magnum bolt face or maybe because it's too short and I can seat the bullets out too long. LMAO

This is too much like you are trying to win the argument by misquoting your opponent, adding statements that were never made, followed by redirecting to a non-related subject. Very poor debating tactics.

Are we talking 28-Nosler vs 7mm/338LM or are we we talking 338/26-Nosler vs 338LM or are we talking 33-Nosler vs 338LM. Where did the 338 Norma enter the discussion. You keep jumping around so much I can't tell where what you are saying fits the discussion.

Perhaps you don't have the logic skills to keep on course of the topic. Yes that is a direct dig. gun)

Maybe it just that your opinion has to prevail and if it can't you start attacking your debating opponent or changing the subject. gun) You ain't the first and won't be the last. No problem.

Most of what you say is all your opinion. I'm good with that. It's not facts but opinions don't have to be based on facts. Even mine.

I keep saying again and again. It's ain't about size or speed, it's about fit for purpose. Faster is not better if it don't fit.

I suggested we take the efficiency/usable case capacity/what ever to a different thread but NOOOO. You seem to want to keep the audience here, is that because you are afraid no one will listen to you if the discussion has to include empirical data to support opinions.lightbulb

Sticks tongue out in a juvenile fashion to show dismissive attitude

BTW: I have visions of you screaming spittle all over your screen and jumping up and down shouting your wrong, your wrong, your wrong. I'm trying to have a cordial discussion but sometimes another member gets a bug up his bonnet.....

 

[pwrdbycotn]

By your own admission it's less capacity than a 338 Lapua and 338 Norma. I don't need to own one to know what the velocity will be like. It will be really close to a 338 Norma and less than a Lapua by your numbers. Like I said it's not magical pixie dust stuff. Next your going to tell me it's faster than the Norma even though the Norma has more capacity and is shorter so it can be throated longer. I hate to tell you but the Norma people tried to say it was the equal of the Lapua when it came out and it fell short. Besides no where in this discussion was there a loaded case length stipulation. There are 3.9+" magazines out there and 4.0" Remington style internal magazines. That is like saying a 28 Nosler is faster than a 7RUM because it fits in a 3.68" magazine. Get real man, case capacity equals speed. Even at SAAMI specs the Lapua will out run a 338/26 Nolser (A wildcat with what is obviously a longer throat) with everything but the heaviest bullets. The cool thing is Lapua brass will out last Nosler brass 3 or 4 times over at max pressure for the same cost.

I won't own one because I won't pay 2.50 a case for any Nosler brass. If it was Lapua or RWS then I might but the Nosler brass I've used hasn't been worth more than 1.00 a case and that is being generous. Besides I can neck down my 30-338 Norma Imp and out run it using 45 cent Lapua brass. Oh darn I have to use a .588 bolt to do it. Maybe it's out of contention because it doesn't use a standard magnum bolt face or maybe because it's too short and I can seat the bullets out too long. LMAO

So, in your opinion, what should companies in the shooting sports industry be focused on? It's quite obvious you don't want them to invent any new chamberings. So where should these companies be focusing their resources?

 

[WildRose]

So with all this arguing over what wildcat cartridge has what case capacity and achieves what velocity, I go back to the original question of what "hole" does the 28 Nosler fill? It's a factory loaded round that is bigger than the 7mm RM and runs neck and neck with the 7mm RUM. If Nosler can keep up with production better than Remington can, then they win.

So while the majority of people on this site reload themselves, there are 10 times as many shooters/hunters that don't. That's the hole.

I don't have a 7mm magnum cartridge... YET. My 28 Nosler is on order and should be finished by September.

Plus doing it in a a standard magnum action with less recoil, muzzle blast, and better barrel life.

Basically it fills the same hole as the 7mm STW but without the belt which a lot of people have been convinced is a bad thing.

More power to them, I hope they are successful with it.

 

[Dick Tinsley]

By your own admission it's less capacity than a 338 Lapua and 338 Norma. I don't need to own one to know what the velocity will be like. It will be really close to a 338 Norma and less than a Lapua by your numbers. Like I said it's not magical pixie dust stuff. Next your going to tell me it's faster than the Norma even though the Norma has more capacity and is shorter so it can be throated longer. I hate to tell you but the Norma people tried to say it was the equal of the Lapua when it came out and it fell short. Besides no where in this discussion was there a loaded case length stipulation. There are 3.9+" magazines out there and 4.0" Remington style internal magazines. That is like saying a 28 Nosler is faster than a 7RUM because it fits in a 3.68" magazine. Get real man, case capacity equals speed. Even at SAAMI specs the Lapua will out run a 338/26 Nolser (A wildcat with what is obviously a longer throat) with everything but the heaviest bullets. The cool thing is Lapua brass will out last Nosler brass 3 or 4 times over at max pressure for the same cost.

I won't own one because I won't pay 2.50 a case for any Nosler brass. If it was Lapua or RWS then I might but the Nosler brass I've used hasn't been worth more than 1.00 a case and that is being generous. Besides I can neck down my 30-338 Norma Imp and out run it using 45 cent Lapua brass. Oh darn I have to use a .588 bolt to do it. Maybe it's out of contention because it doesn't use a standard magnum bolt face or maybe because it's too short and I can seat the bullets out too long. LMAO

Isn't the heading of this tread for the 28 Nosler?

DT

 

[Kennibear]

First let me correct my mistake. The Nosler family is based on the RUM case only in standard 30-06 length.

Engineering 101 is onto the crux of this thread: if Savage or any other major player picks up this cartridge it will overwhelm Remington's RUM family. To wit: if you want a RUM you get a Rem 700. But if Savage or Ruger,Tikka, Browning etc. pick up these chamberings they will dominate their calibers. My Savage 116 in 375 Ruger ships from the factory with the DBM stamped "300 WM". Same with the spare DBM I ordered. It is possible for Savage to simply screw in the properly chambered barrel and join the club. Therefore the "hole" may be a standard length super-mag family of cartridges that an average hunter who buys only factory ammo (not a reloader) can afford and find what he needs. As a side note: the Savage DBM's I have measure 3.555" inside and 375 Ruger ammo loaded to a COAL of 3.450" feed and function just fine as long as the bullets don't jam the rifling @ 3.450" COAL.

As to the case size difference the 7mm RUM has the shoulder/body junction pushed almost 1/4" (0.221") further forward than the 28 Nosler. Head & shoulder diameters are essentially the same for both cartridges. 7mm RUM powder capacity is > 28 Nosler. When Lapua developed the 338 LM as a 21st Century Sniper cartridge the original loading did not meet the criteria set down. But using conventional case forming limited the operating pressure to 65Kpsi. So by employing a harder case head by altering the differential case annealing they fabricated a case capable of operating at a higher (67-72Kpsi) chamber pressure with a stronger/harder case head and primer pocket . Hence the LM runs neck and neck with the larger capacity RUM family of cases by using ever so slightly higher chamber pressures. When I read this for the first time I wondered how long it would take others to use this advantage to up the game. Seems Nosler missed an excellent opportunity to one up everyone (except Lapua) else. More's the pity.

So to the OP, 28 Nosler can fill a hole by providing excellent ballistics from standard length actions. But it ain't no 7mm RUM and it ain't far from one....

KB