243 ladder test h4350 help

[rockytop65]

You had better watch your charges closely, 40.8 gr of H4350 is over the recommend maximum charge. Wish you lots of luck!

Check each case after shot an no sign of pressure. Thanks for concern

 

[skipglo]

Help me understand what's going on here. I've read we're people says not to shoot paper with a ladder test. But if not an I went by the velocity of the 2 different ones that was close I wouldn't be grouping. So help me understand. It was in the 90s when I shot this. I'm not a seasoned reloader but have been doing it a few years.

Personally.....I'd say four and five are your best...just me

 

[Canhunter35]

To be clear, it is my understanding that the bullets that group together on a ladder test do so because they have similar velocities. We want to identify the charge weights that correspond to those velocities so we can load in the middle of the node to reduce the effects of small variations in actual charge weights or temperature sensitivity.

I honestly would like to hear an explanation of how a ladder test could give better, repeatable information for finding velocity nodes than a chronograph.
I could see a ladder test giving you other useful information like performance of a marginally stabilized bullet at range or true bc values. 3 shot group ladders might also give you some insight into a rifle's harmonic quirks, but in that case you are not basing your charge weight on velocity nodes. That case involves finding a velocity that works with that rifle/bullet combo and is part of a much more complicated process to find a powder type that has a velocity node that coincides with the harmonics dictated velocity.

As a civil engineer I like to eliminate variables when I am able, particularly when finding velocity nodes Which is so easily and directly measurable. That many benchrest shooters do ladder tests doesn't explain why they do. I can't imagine that its because their ladder tests generate better relative velocity information.

Velocity flat spots over a chrony don't indicate a good shooting load. A ladder test should be performed after a seating depth test unless you have insight why it will work, but you should be sub moa already then perform ladder test, I like to shoot at 450+, your shots will group together indicating a load.
On a side note, shooting 1 charge at each charge weight is a statistical sample of 1. Those mv flat spots could be random occurrences. Run your velocity ladder over a chrony multiple times and you will find your velocity flat spots might not be that flat.

 

[fisherman987]

it Seems clear to me that ladder tests are Simply a substitute for a chronograph (and a poor one at that). Even expert shots are somewhat at the mercy of the environment which can make an otherwise 1 moa group into a 2 or 3 moa one. In other words, if you are shooting at 300 yds, a perfectly executed shot can easily land anywhere in a 6" or 9" circle given some unexpected wind and you have little idea of what factors in addition to velocity caused that bullet to land at the extreme distance from aim point or center of group. Add to that the uncertainty of a single shot "group" you end up with a lot of data that you can't rely on.

at the very least a 3 shot group will give you a better idea of the group center since that is what I would want to compare between charge weights (CW). The wind proof option is to shoot 3 shots of each charge weight through a chronograph to get good velocity numbers, ES and pressure signs. The CWs that exhibit similar velocities are your nodes and you can choose your best node based on ES. Then you set up your targets at whatever range you like and start shooting groups varying seating depth.

lots of ammo and barrel life is wasted chasing deceptive ladder tests caused by adverse environments and/or technique and it doesn't take long to pay for a decent chronograph with the savings realized.

I think either one by itself would be lacking important information. I would say where your bullets hit the target is more definitive than velocity reason being when you are in a nice broad node, you'll find your bullets will group very tight even with a 25-35 fps difference in rounds. If your loads are less than perfect you might miss the node because of the variance in velocity. Best to look at both.

 

[TX Badger]

Given this is a very small sample size and further testing is going to have to validate this first round, but I cannot see why someone wouldn't use 7,8. There is a velocity flat spot and they went in one hole.... I'd load up 5 each at 39.3, 39.5, 39.6 and see if the loads hold up. I'd shoot them at 300 If the wind is calm, but if it isn't you can still get meaningful data at 100. A group in the .1s with single digit es will probably do just fine when you can shoot further out. I think Bryan Litz has yet to find an example of non linear dispersion. As long as the bullet is stable.

 

[Eric H]

100 yards no seating test yet. Started at .020 off

That 7,8 is the way to go and I normally start a test at 200yds. I would go back to the range with 39.4 or 39.5 and see what it looks like. If it's tight take it out further 2,3,4 hundred yards. 6MM love the H4350 and it's temp tolerant. I'm running a 6CM using DTACs with H4350 hitting at 1K yds.

 

[Arkansasdad]

Help me understand what's going on here. I've read we're people says not to shoot paper with a ladder test. But if not an I went by the velocity of the 2 different ones that was close I wouldn't be grouping. So help me understand. It was in the 90s when I shot this. I'm not a seasoned reloader but have been doing it a few years.

I load 6 or 8 different recipes with 8 cartridges each, I will explain why;
Each separate recipe will start off with a cool clean barrel, 8 rounds is enough info to weed out filters and to shoot through at least mag and to foul the

Help me understand what's going on here. I've read we're people says not to shoot paper with a ladder test. But if not an I went by the velocity of the 2 different ones that was close I wouldn't be grouping. So help me understand. It was in the 90s when I shot this. I'm not a seasoned reloader but have been doing it a few years.

Help me understand what's going on here. I've read we're people says not to shoot paper with a ladder test. But if not an I went by the velocity of the 2 different ones that was close I wouldn't be grouping. So help me understand. It was in the 90s when I shot this. I'm not a seasoned reloader but have been doing it a few years.

I load 6 to 8 different recipes with 8 rounds each when I am building a load for a rifle. I will shoot each recipe at 100 yds. beached and bagged. I am not trying to find out how good I can shoot but how well the rifle shoots a particular load consistantly. I will load each round with the same fire formed brass as new or full length sized brass will give unacceptable results as each round will adapting to chamber dimensions and will differ with each different recipe, (remember we are trying to keep our baseline as even as possible between recipes). I will explain.
I will chrono each shot and record the FPS and deviation and grouping, after all consistant grouping is why I doing this.
I will start each recipe from a cool clean barrel, this will tell how each recipe reacts to, cold shot, barrel heat rise and fowling. 8 rounds each will let me shoot through at least one mag and is enough down range to weed out flyers and get good average and see telltale signs of over pressure or primer reaction.
Be sure to record time of day, weather conditions, humidity and environmental temperatures for future calculations.
I will shoot a recipe with all shots recorded then open bolt or action, walk down range to retrieve the target, (don't be in a hurry keep your energy up, it is going to be a long day).
By the time I get back the barrel is almost cool and then I clean it, usually I just scrub to remove powder fowling, by then I have a cool,clean barrel to start on another recipe.
This will take all day to shoot each recipe so don't be in a hurry but by the time I'm finished I will be 99% sure the load I settle on will be the load that action and barrel shoots best. Remember that each rifle will have best recipe and no two will be the same. I have worked up loads for identical rifles and they would have different recipes that they shoot best.
Remember to record temp and humidity at start of each recipe because you will have to correlate each recipe in relation to environmental factors, they will all change by the end of the day. I will be able to pick a load that has the acceptable velocity and accuracy needed to suit the applied situation and outcome. The highest velocity is very seldom the most accurate, it is usually in the 85% to 90% of maximum safe velocity. So if you start seeing overpressure signs at, lots say 3000 fps, then probably the most accurate loads will be in the 2600 to 2700 range. That may save you some time.
I know you said you were new to this but all I can discern from your post is recipes that your gun will shoot with no relationship to each other. There are no groups, no average FPS and no way to tell which recipe your rifle will safely shoot under stress. This is a poor way to work up a load, it takes time patience and a lot of hard work, especially if your rifle is a large caliber.
Hope this helps as I pass this alongI am getting older so knowledge needs to be sent down. This method is not something I can take credit for as this is the way most of us that have plaques and ribbons on the wall have done it for many years. If you can master this technique you will make any rifle shoot to its individual potential not considering how good the shooter is. Happy shooting and God bless.

 

[rockytop65]

I would like to thank all of y'all for the information y'all have provided. A lot of good info for me to improve on. Thanks again an good shooting.

 

[Tumbleweed]

1,2,7,8. Nice tight group. But makes zero sense
to me.

That's why one should shoot two shots of each charge on a ladder. And it really should be done at distances farther than 400-500 yards.

 

[Opa-lopa]

Ladder tests without targets are wishful thinking. Good luck picking a charge weight from this.

 

[Laguna Freak]

To be clear, it is my understanding that the bullets that group together on a ladder test do so because they have similar velocities. We want to identify the charge weights that correspond to those velocities so we can load in the middle of the node to reduce the effects of small variations in actual charge weights or temperature sensitivity.

I honestly would like to hear an explanation of how a ladder test could give better, repeatable information for finding velocity nodes than a chronograph.
I could see a ladder test giving you other useful information like performance of a marginally stabilized bullet at range or true bc values. 3 shot group ladders might also give you some insight into a rifle's harmonic quirks, but in that case you are not basing your charge weight on velocity nodes. That case involves finding a velocity that works with that rifle/bullet combo and is part of a much more complicated process to find a powder type that has a velocity node that coincides with the harmonics dictated velocity.

As a civil engineer I like to eliminate variables when I am able, particularly when finding velocity nodes Which is so easily and directly measurable. That many benchrest shooters do ladder tests doesn't explain why they do. I can't imagine that its because their ladder tests generate better relative velocity information.

The ladder test is a tool. Like all tools, save the US $, it has limited application. All shooters have to decide for self; "where and how am I going to start and complete my load development." Me? I like efficiency of process. Others like the process; efficient or not. To me; the OP's 7&8 CW look likely to provide the route to the most efficient conclusion of his process.

He has to stretch the range with groups in that narrow potential node to find out.

 

[Swiftkill]

300 yards is what you need, so there is obvious separation but so you can shoot decent groups without wind and mirage being so much of a factor. 600 yards might make sense if this were a 1000 or 1500 yard gun, but even then, 300 should tell the story.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

4,5,6 is your node based on vertical/group/velocity. That's where I would start. And do it at 300 yards next time. This was my latest 300 yard ladder test with my 7-300 win mag, 180g ELDMs, H1000 and RL26. I ended up going with the 72.5g H1000 which later produced a .3" and .7" 3 shot group at 300 yards.

 

[fisherman987]

The ladder test is a tool. Like all tools, save the US $, it has limited application. All shooters have to decide for self; "where and how am I going to start and complete my load development." Me? I like efficiency of process. Others like the process; efficient or not. To me; the OP's 7&8 CW look likely to provide the route to the most efficient conclusion of his process.

He has to stretch the range with groups in that narrow potential node to find out.

4,5,6 is your node based on vertical/group/velocity. That's where I would start. And do it at 300 yards next time. This was my latest 300 yard ladder test with my 7-300 win mag, 180g ELDMs, H1000 and RL26. I ended up going with the 72.5g H1000 which later produced a .3" and .7" 3 shot group at 300 yards.

View attachment 204482

This actually illustrates what I said earlier as well. Note that the group with the largest extreme spread in velocity was actually the tightest group. Excellent example of a ladder test done properly. Nice shooting!