200 yd group

[silvertip-co]

I zero all my rifles at 300y. 250y on my 30-30s w open sights. On my scoped rifles groupings what I try for is <1" at 100, 1" at 200, and 1.5" at 300 and 3" at 425y. Using small orange stick on targdots its pretty doable, My wife shoots same tho her groups are usually smaller, a biorhythm thing Im sure. The general rule of thumb of shoot small miss small generally works on the range with good sandbags.

 

[brant89]

This is coming from a novice so you may want to take this with a grain of salt. We cannot hunt big game with rifles here so until this fall (first western hunt) my experience is limited to what I have been able to do on groundhogs and crows in the past 4 years of LR shooting/hunting.

I do all load development at no less than 450yd, any closer and a ladder test starts to get pretty cluttered. This gives me a load that will produce the best long range accuracy because, as others have stated, tiny groups don't matter as much at 2-300yd. Both my rifles regularly shoot .75MOA or less at 200yds but often shoot better groups at longer distances (best to-date is 3 shots into 1.5" at 585yd, but I would never lead anyone to believe I could replicate that group). .75MOA is sufficient for my skill level and comfortable hunting distances.

I also do all my practice and load development of a bipod and rear bag to simulate field conditions. I have tried shooting off a bench but usually shoot better off a bipod (probably because I have little to no experience shooting off a benchrest).

I zero my rifles at 200yds simply because it's a nice round number and I don't really care if I'm off by an inch and a half inside of 200yd on big game animals (blackbirds in the swamp are a different story).

I have a 12" round gong that I set up in the field and shoot from various positions much like davkrat. If I cannot consistently land a first round cold bore shot on that gong then I will not shoot at an animal at that distance (with the exception of groundhogs and crows). You must also consider the size of the vitals of the animal you are pursuing. I will be going after pronghorn this fall so realistically I must be able to hit within 4" of center (8" vital area) on the gong to obtain acceptable accuracy for pronghorn. The full 12" would be acceptable on elk sized game or larger.

The first round cold bore limitation also brings another factor into the mix, wind. I have different distances I am comfortable shooting depending on wind speed and direction. A shot into the wind is much easier than a straight crosswind. The only way to learn your limitations in different conditions is to shoot regularly in ALL weather conditions and treat every shot as a learning experience.

I hope this is helpful and if I have missed something or if my methods are flawed feel free to set me straight.

 

[Varberger757]

I zero my 300WM at 200m (218 yards) and are usually collecting 5 shots in 30 - 40 mm (.5 - .7 MOA).

 

[RockyMtnMT]

This is coming from a novice so you may want to take this with a grain of salt. We cannot hunt big game with rifles here so until this fall (first western hunt) my experience is limited to what I have been able to do on groundhogs and crows in the past 4 years of LR shooting/hunting.

I do all load development at no less than 450yd, any closer and a ladder test starts to get pretty cluttered. This gives me a load that will produce the best long range accuracy because, as others have stated, tiny groups don't matter as much at 2-300yd. Both my rifles regularly shoot .75MOA or less at 200yds but often shoot better groups at longer distances (best to-date is 3 shots into 1.5" at 585yd, but I would never lead anyone to believe I could replicate that group). .75MOA is sufficient for my skill level and comfortable hunting distances.

I also do all my practice and load development of a bipod and rear bag to simulate field conditions. I have tried shooting off a bench but usually shoot better off a bipod (probably because I have little to no experience shooting off a benchrest).

I zero my rifles at 200yds simply because it's a nice round number and I don't really care if I'm off by an inch and a half inside of 200yd on big game animals (blackbirds in the swamp are a different story).

I have a 12" round gong that I set up in the field and shoot from various positions much like davkrat. If I cannot consistently land a first round cold bore shot on that gong then I will not shoot at an animal at that distance (with the exception of groundhogs and crows). You must also consider the size of the vitals of the animal you are pursuing. I will be going after pronghorn this fall so realistically I must be able to hit within 4" of center (8" vital area) on the gong to obtain acceptable accuracy for pronghorn. The full 12" would be acceptable on elk sized game or larger.

The first round cold bore limitation also brings another factor into the mix, wind. I have different distances I am comfortable shooting depending on wind speed and direction. A shot into the wind is much easier than a straight crosswind. The only way to learn your limitations in different conditions is to shoot regularly in ALL weather conditions and treat every shot as a learning experience.

I hope this is helpful and if I have missed something or if my methods are flawed feel free to set me straight.

Doesn't sound novice to me. This is solid advice.

Steve

 

[cowboy]

1/2" MOA, 3/4" MOA, or 1" MOA zeroed at 200 yd....I don't care. Have different rifles that shoot all 3. In fact the rifle I hunt with the majority of the time isn't my best group shooter.

I'm quite a bit different in that after getting a load worked up I go to the rifle range - 10 min. from my house - and shoot 2 rounds max at 500 yd off my bipod and go home, repeat a half dozen more times. If the load stays within an 8" gong I start stretching the distance.

I quit chasing the one hole goal years ago after burning out way too many barrels and quite honestly I can't remember the last time I took more than 2 shots at anything while hunting.

If a rifle won't shoot with a cold bore I have no desire to own it and I only expect it to perform for 2 rounds.

 

[brant89]

Thanks Steve. I just wanted to add a disclaimer because I know there are a lot of shooters here with a lot more LR experience than me.

 

[Pa Grizz]

200 is what I have my guns at for hunting.This is what I I did the other day.All 4 are factory guns.ALL three shot groups with a 25-o6.280 rem 7mm mag and a 30-06

 

[brant89]

I've had loads that would shoot 1/2MOA at 200yd with nearly 100fps ES. Needless to say those groups opened up quickly beyond 500yds. I couldn't figure out why I was unable to get reliable first round hits on groundhogs past about 450yds. I have since switched to ladder testing and the problem has disappeared. Still use OCW for short range rifles (<350yd) but all the long range sticks get a ladder test. Others may disagree but this has been my experience.

 

[jonthomps]

As others have said, it depends on if it's a custom stick or a factory one. For customs I try to get my loads to 1/2 MOA or under.

 

[brant89]

I would agree that the custom tube on my 260AI produces much better ES than the factory one on the 223, but the 223 will shoot slightly smaller groups at 200 than the 260AI (both will produce 1/2MOA or better at 200 if the driver does his part). Back the target up and the groups on the 223 will start to open up and the 260AI continues to perform beautifully (most likely due to the difference in ES), so I guess that would be in agreement with your statement.

I have been thinking lately that it makes sense for a cartridge with larger case capacity to produce smaller ES (up to a certain point). It seems intuitive since a 0.1gr in a .223 can make a significant difference in accuracy and velocity but 0.1gr in a 260 isn't even noticeable most of the time. Is this correct or am I missing something?

PS: This is not to say it is ok to be sloppy in your reloading if you have large case capacity, I still measure every charge on a beam scale to be as consistent as possible with all cartridges, I'm just curious to know if this theory holds water or not. Maybe some BR shooters might have some input here.

 

[lckytylr]

This is becoming an interesting thread.

Can someone please fill me in, what is ES?

Also, Brandt89, I'm confused. My understanding of a Ladder Test was that when first working up a load, You'd load up a sequence of rounds from Minimum Charge to Maximum Charge at .5 grain intervals to determine about where your barrel's sweet spot is. Then You'd narrow it down from there to the perfect charge, then possibly mess with seating depths and such. - In your post below, You'd stated that you had 1/2 MOA groups at 200 . . . and then you started doing ladder tests. Are you saying that you were able to start with 1/2 MOA groups and them improve on them through the ladder test process? . . . or . . . I guess I'm confused, I thought I understood ladder tests and how to best implement them.

Thanks everyone.

 

[gareyg]

ES is extreme spread, the distance between the most widely spaced shots in a group.

 

[brant89]

My typical load development process goes like this.

1. Find COAL where bullet touches lands using the Sharpie marker method then seat bullets 20 thou off lands for AMAX's or load a round robin test for VLD's to determine optimum seating depth.

2. Load one cartridge at starting load and fire, look for pressure signs, and continue incrementally until I find max load for my rifle. This is a good opportunity to zero the rifle.

3. Chronograph max load to determine if that particular powder produces acceptable velocities. It doesn't have to be the fastest load out there but if you can't get a 260 to push a 140 past 2650fps then a different powder is in order. (Got burned on an 8lb keg of IMR4831 before I employed this step).

4. Load ladder test in increments of 1-2% of case capacity, along with 6-10 rounds somewhere in the middle for sighters and to ensure that I am consistent behind the trigger before I shoot the ladder. I then mark each bullet ogive with different colored Sharpie so I can identify each shot later. I find red, green, blue, and yellow to work best and four colors allows you to mark up to 10 different loads. A Qtip with rubbing alcohol makes it very easy to identify the colors later.

5. Shoot ladder test at no less than 450yd (600yd is preferred). I like to use old furnace and water heater boxes from my parents plumbing and heating business to ensure all rounds will land on the target. I also dial 1MOA left or right of the aiming point to ensure that none of them land in the bullseye because that can make it difficult to see the different colors from the bullet. I also like my aiming point to be no greater than 1/2MOA.

6. Analyze test results for least amount of vertical spread. This should produce a load with very small ES.

7. Load 10 rounds at optimum charge and shoot for grouping at extended range verify load consistency. I like to do this at 600yd or more.

Others results may vary but this is what my trial and error has proven to work for me. Please feel free to chime in, always open to suggestions. BTW, I'd like to thank everyone here for all their posts because nearly all my knowledge is a result of hours of searching on this site. It is a great resource, especially for those who do not have any LR shooting mentors to show them the ropes.

 

[brant89]

Also, when I refer to ES I'm talking about extreme spread in muzzle velocity, not extreme shot spread. It doesn't take a huge variation in muzzle velocity to put you off the target at 1000yd. My groups are always wider than they are tall. Wind will kill group size if you aren't paying attention.