180 ELD-M problems

[Phil Rizzo]

yeah you're pushing those way past the point they're known to begin turning into spiritual entities. They're better than when they first came out but the only way I'd even attempt that MV is in a 10 twist with the mildest rifling available, 4r/5r something like that. Some folks do have better luck of course, but others start to have trouble at 2900, especially in 8 twist or conventional 6 land rifling. Some guns will, some won't, and I think you can just go ahead and say yours won't.

To give you an idea how delicate these things are, I shoot them at about 2650 out of a 5r 1:8 and I have observed jacket separation/fragmentation in a filled beer can at 550y. They are very, very soft. Which is why they're great so far out even aside from BC. But it sounds like you'll have to live with that tiny bit of BC still left on the shelf. I just can't see a way around it.

Hard to justify that as a hunting bullet, eh? I'd hate for one to hit skin and ribs if they dissolve in turbulence.
Plenty of better choices thankfully.

 

[UCzO___]

A lot of comments are saying it may be "exploding" due to over rotation. You gave us the caliber, powder, distance to the lands, name of the rifle, size of the rock you shot at, but you haven't told us what the twist rate is on your rifle. That will give you a good idea of if you are spinning over 300k or not. WHAT IS THE TWIST OF YOUR BARREL?

 

[xsn10s]

The easy button is to check at 50 yards and 100 yards. 300 yard targets isn't going to tell you much especially with the smaller square target. Set up LARGE target stands at 50 and 100 yards. As suggested by waspocrew and FEENIX.

 

[2buffalo]

I shoot them out of a 28 Nosler 8 twist mid 3100s. Never seen one not make it to the target in over 700 rounds.

 

[UCzO___]

I shoot them out of a 28 Nosler 8 twist mid 3100s. Never seen one not make it to the target in over 700 rounds.

You bump that velocity up to 3150 and change the twist to 7.5, you are at the magic number that people say the bullet will explode, 302,400rpm.

 

[2buffalo]

That's about where I am at but an 8 twist. I have no experience with a 7.5 so I can't comment.

 

[waspocrew]

A lot of comments are saying it may be "exploding" due to over rotation. You gave us the caliber, powder, distance to the lands, name of the rifle, size of the rock you shot at, but you haven't told us what the twist rate is on your rifle. That will give you a good idea of if you are spinning over 300k or not. WHAT IS THE TWIST OF YOUR BARREL?

Twist is 1:8.6 per Seekins specs

 

[lancetkenyon]

You are assuming the 180 will have the same POI as the 175. You need to find out the actual POI of the 180.

I don't see an 18" difference in POI @ 300 yards though. Not between a 175 ELD-X and 180 ELD-M. And not even knowing where they are going.

 

[waspocrew]

You bump that velocity up to 3150 and change the twist to 7.5, you are at the magic number that people say the bullet will explode, 302,400rpm.

I think there's a lot more to it than simply going past 300k RPMs. I have a 1:7.5 twist 22 Creed slinging 62 gr ELDVTs at 3654 - that puts them a touch over 350k RPMs. They all make it to the target.

Throat wear, rifling type, etc can cause a lot of problems.

 

[lancetkenyon]

I think there's a lot more to it than simply going past 300k RPMs. I have a 1:7.5 twist 22 Creed slinging 62 gr ELDVTs at 3654 - that puts them a touch over 350k RPMs. They all make it to the target.

Throat wear, rifling type, etc can cause a lot of problems.

Agree. I have numerous rifles pushing Berger and Sierra bullets at 320,000+ that are not coming apart.

 

[FEENIX]

I don't see an 18" difference in POI @ 300 yards though. Not between a 175 ELD-X and 180 ELD-M. And not even knowing where they are going.

 

[cajun]

Throat wear, carbon ring light jacket bullets. Sometimes it's not just one thing. I doubt you are over twisting them. How many rounds on the barrel.

 

[adk hunter]

I've heard nothing but rave reviews on Seekins customer service might be worth a jingle too. I'd pick one of the other ten great bullet choices and move on. You have a rocket ship cartridge why handicap it anyway?

Old and new always say let the rifle tell you what bullet it likes. Your Havak is SHOUTING at you...or projectile vomiting

 

[tim_w]

Bullets coming apart are very bullet specific. As are the barrel specs being used. I can show you numerous posts on other forums of 180 eldm coming apart with 8 tw as slow as 2850.

The longer for caliber the bullet for a given jacket the more apt they are to failure from tq stress.
Example: Sierras are well known for their thicker tougher jackets. With that the 223 95gr SMKs were coming apart in numerous F-T/R rifles with the relatively small .223 case. This is at vel 2750-2800 28-30". The issue combining 6.5 to 7 twist, long barrel for longer stress duration. .218 bore size usually 6 and 4 groove (opposing deformation). Swap to 24-26" barrel .219 bore 5r rifling (non-opposing lands) bore total area and the sane bullets survive in 22-250 and 22 CM vel even in 7 twist. So it took the blow up threshold from 280k rpm to over 308k rpm.

Having a case that is a known throat eater all the worse. That single factor alone can blow up bullets.

The 28 Nosler with a 8 twist is a blending of nunerous negative effects. Throats turnninto gravel road quickly, Add to that huge powder volume for fast vel 3100+ velocities, a fast 8 twist really only needed for the 190 A tip for max bc at low elev + cold weather and the long high bc monos. 9 tw is plenty for 190-195 bergers. In fact its almost as if those berger bullets and the 28 Nosler were made for each other. But wdd to those specs a tight bore and opposing even lands and the deck is stacked.

There are numerous variables that effect bullet integrity which is why you see such wildly different reports. But once you account for the common factors it becomes much more consistent and clear. Still are outliers which is almost always about bore surface and its total area.