12GA Rounds for Grizz?

[Pdvdh]

The standard factory slugs of olden days would be risky for deep penetration into the body of a big bear on a frontal charge, I think. Soft lead shell with the hollowed out butt half.

No reason not to use the well proven Brenneke-stlye slug, with the possibility of having to hammer a 600lb or heavier bear. They aren't prohibitively expensive.

I do think most any 12ga slug will drop 200lb bears at close range. I have to contend with the possibility of encounters with some big boars. So I prep for them. Any overkill on smaller sized bears is icing on the cake.

Even a 200lb grizzly will rip ya a new one if they make physical contact. Quicker they die, the safer and better for all involved. My scalp remains intact, I retain my good looks, and my black hair turns gray at a slowed rate.

 

[Muddyboots]

I am thinking of a lead tungsten hybrid slug that I can make up with very little witchcraft. Two different projo's; one free release sabot or one piece sabot to target. Just a fun thought to mull around and maybe even try a few.

 

[Pdvdh]

Tungsten is pretty expensive. The 2oz of tungsten in my reloaded 12ga loads cost about $7 at the time I purchased it. I purchased mine several years ago, pre-Covid, at about $56/lb. Not sure what it costs nowadays.

I have no idea how easily tungsten can be machined. I know it's tough stuff / hard. If you can recover tungsten shotshell pellets in a pellet trap, they look like new and can be reoaded over and over again.

As to mixing tungsten in with molten lead... I have my doubts. Would require some research!

 

[Mmac52280]

Not too sure I'd look at steel as a catch-all as a great Bear slug, though it's strong enough where it may fall down is, in penetration due to being lighter, yes... even though faster at the start out. I think where slugs like the Brenneke Black Magic Magnum have the edge is in its weight and harder cast lead, along with respectable velocity giving it the qualities that are needed to reliably (if that's real) get the job done. Putting steel in sabots or even copper jackets? I don't think that connects all the dots of physics, both rounds are a "give and take" in ballistics I just think the lead (Brenneke) has more check marks on its side than the other options.

Side note: Foster slug isn't in the game, great for Deer and such, better than a pointy stick for Big Bear. (just my thoughts)

I've found that lighter objects seem to slow down faster when met with resistance than do heavier ones of near the same diameter even at a higher velocity; the lighter ones. Now granted we could take this to a preposterous or nonsensical place and say "what if" the steel was traveling at 3000 fps, well technically I don't think that would be a shotgun anymore. By the way, if you put a well-designed sabot on a slug most of the time you are always looking at having to decrease its weight and diameter two factors needed in this conversation for a good Bear slug. Hey, just my 0.2 my friend... I could be completely wrong about the whole thing I've never killed a Big Bear with a slug...but I have a pretty good idea of what works due to its physics. Cheers.

You can buy these from Brenneke. You do not have to be in law enforcement. About $5 a round, but it's a heavy 602 grain slug and I think muzzle velocity is 1550 fps. So better than most 3" magnum rounds. Much harder alloy as well. They don't specify what type of engine blocks they shot it through, but believe a bear's skull is not as hard.

SFMBPM® - Special Forces Maximum Barrier Penetration Magnum | Brenneke - Ammunition

www.brennekeusa.com

 

[Mmac52280]

Or just pull out the big dog!
View attachment 381262

Gee, where did you find the image?????

 

[memtb]

I worked with a guy back in the day when he was with Heckler & Koch as their LEO training VP and pro shooter, John Satterwhite, John was an American Olympic shooter and World Championship, and an amazing tactical shotgun shooter, in fact, Clint Smith was also working with him at the time, these were the days before Thunder Ranch, Clint was just getting that idea together, I digress, John was an amazing demo shooter, back then the Benelli M1 was just coming out and he H&K was pushing it pretty hard. So, I had John, Clint, and H&K who they worked for come in for an LEO school I was putting on, John did some trick shooting for the Officers, which they marveled in and loved to watch, this guy (John) was good. Here's the pearl; John didn't use the Benelli he used his 60's Winchester model 12 I later over dinner asked him why he used the model 12, and his answer was; "it's way faster, I can outrun the Benelli with my old model 12"... pulling some of the shot off he did you'd have to, he could manually operate the pump faster than the semi-auto because the semi-auto had mechanical limitation and the pump was only limited by the shooter's ability. Granted, the John Winchester model 12 was well tuned, one of the subject areas he got into with the class was how to tune pump shotguns, and the reason I now carry an Ithica model 37 12ga Deerslayer rifled barrel slug gun in Bear country. Just my 0.2 Cheers.

I don know the trigger design of the Ithica 37, but one of the things that made the Win. Model 12 so fast was the operators ability to continue to have the trigger pulled (not release between shots) and merely operate the slide. Every time the slide reached the end of the stroke…..the firing pin was release! The faster you manipulate the slide…..the faster you got off rounds! memtb

 

[VLD Pilot]

The standard factory slugs of olden days would be risky for deep penetration into the body of a big bear on a frontal charge, I think. Soft lead shell with the hollowed out butt half.

No reason not to use the well proven Brenneke-stlye slug, with the possibility of having to hammer a 600lb or heavier bear. They aren't prohibitively expensive.

I do think most any 12ga slug will drop 200lb bears at close range. I have to contend with the possibility of encounters with some big boars. So I prep for them. Any overkill on smaller sized bears is icing on the cake.

Even a 200lb grizzly will rip ya a new one if they make physical contact. Quicker they die, the safer and better for all involved. My scalp remains intact, I retain my good looks, and my black hair turns gray at a slowed rate.

I don know the trigger design of the Ithica 37, but one of the things that made the Win. Model 12 so fast was the operators ability to continue to have the trigger pulled (not release between shots) and merely operate the slide. Every time the slide reached the end of the stroke…..the firing pin was release! The faster you manipulate the slide…..the faster you got off rounds! memtb

My Ithaca 37 is a very reliable shotgun. It's my defense shotgun as well.

 

[memtb]

My Ithaca 37 is a very reliable shotgun. It's my defense shotgun as well.

Certainly "not" suggesting that it's a less reliable shotgun…..only attempting to explain why the Model 12 "may" be faster to cycle/fire!

In fact, many years ago I was told by a local gunsmith who had been an armorer for the US Army …..that he saw far less repairs on the Ithaca Model 37's than any other shotguns being used by the military! memtb

 

[xsn10s]

I seem to recal that some of the Ithica's would also fire with the trigger held back. Out of the three I was able to fire thee 870 the fastest. But that is probably due to being more familiar with one. Not that it was "better" than the other two.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Certainly "not" suggesting that it's a less reliable shotgun…..only attempting to explain why the Model 12 "may" be faster to cycle/fire!

In fact, many years ago I was told by a local gunsmith who had been an armorer for the US Army …..that he saw far less repairs on the Ithaca Model 37's than any other shotguns being used by the military! memtb

I get it. I had a model 12 Winchester. Can't remember if it's any better of a pump gun tho. It's been gone for decades. Picked up this deerslayer about 20 years ago and really like it. Certainly the model 12 could be a better option but it's not an option for me today. This one is very nice and hasn't let me down when range time is in play.

 

[436]

I don know the trigger design of the Ithica 37, but one of the things that made the Win. Model 12 so fast was the operators ability to continue to have the trigger pulled (not release between shots) and merely operate the slide. Every time the slide reached the end of the stroke…..the firing pin was release! The faster you manipulate the slide…..the faster you got off rounds! memtb

Yep, the Ithica mod 37 does the same thing.

 

[436]

You can buy these from Brenneke. You do not have to be in law enforcement. About $5 a round, but it's a heavy 602 grain slug and I think muzzle velocity is 1550 fps. So better than most 3" magnum rounds. Much harder alloy as well. They don't specify what type of engine blocks they shot it through, but believe a bear's skull is not as hard.

SFMBPM® - Special Forces Maximum Barrier Penetration Magnum | Brenneke - Ammunition

www.brennekeusa.com

I've seen them before, they kinda just make it a little harder, heavier, and faster... I'm sure it would deal with Big Bear... far as shooting "through" an engine block???? maybe into a block but through? I don't know... but if they say so ok. I know most vehicles stopped by block shots are due to the piece on the engine getting shot off, few ever by the block being punched through and through, unless it was a .50 BMG.... get lucky and knock off the leakage, carb, or something needed to keep the engine turning and your golden. Just my 0.2 Cheers

 

[Pdvdh]

Shooting "thru the engine block" sells more ammo than "stopped by the engine block". Actually, not sure exactly what they claim on their box of special forces slugs...

I have some that I use for bear defense in my 870s. Also some of their other lines of slugs. If you carry slugs for bear defense where I live, many will carry Brenneke. Including State agency staff.

 

[Mmac52280]

I've seen them before, they kinda just make it a little harder, heavier, and faster... I'm sure it would deal with Big Bear... far as shooting "through" an engine block???? maybe into a block but through? I don't know... but if they say so ok. I know most vehicles stopped by block shots are due to the piece on the engine getting shot off, few ever by the block being punched through and through, unless it was a .50 BMG.... get lucky and knock off the leakage, carb, or something needed to keep the engine turning and your golden. Just my 0.2 Cheers

I've worked on cars since before I was legally able to drive. If you think about it, a car coming at you, it's shoot the driver or the engine. My first inclination if I was going for the engine, I'd shoot dead center, through the radiator, fan, and what sits behind that? Timing chain. Most V6 and V8 have the timing chain right in front with maybe a metal or even a plastic cover. Engine is toast, may even lock up. Even my Cummins diesel would be ruined. Now you can ventilate the driver at your leisure....