12GA Rounds for Grizz?

[xsn10s]

The problem with all of these is that people do not practice, gun sits around forever, then when they use it, they have no muscle memory of how to run them. I have seen a lot of problems from guys that try and pump and follow through on a running coyote. It was all they could do to cycle the action, then re-acquire the target was a free show. The same guys would not maintain their semi-autos either, family, job, and duties on house maintenance took all their time, they needed to get in my truck and go hunting just to get a day off!

Muscle memory isn't just an issue with pump shotguns. It transfers over to semi auto ones too. Besides if you're using it for bear protection I'd be proficient with whatever you use. I've seen beginners run pump shotguns with little instruction. It's fine to use a semi auto if you want. I just don't agree with your assessment of pump shotgun usage.

 

[Pdvdh]

By all means, it's a free country on this decision. Use whatever you prefer.
A properly operating pump action shotgun will feed any ammunition the chamber length is designed for.
A properly operating semi-auto is still dependent on the ammunition for proper function. So if you're gonna shoot semi-auto, it's much more important the ammo of choice be thoroughly tested for function.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Mine never jams, then again, I am not lazy on gun maintenance.

Many people do not shoot pumps enough to ever be proficient with them. I have hunted coyotes for a long time, and over the years, the 870s have been the mainstay of many of my hunting partners. I have seen a LOT of problems with guys not being familiar with follow-up shots with a pump, especially from guys that only shoot their pump on game in the field.

Try a BPS they are a lot smoother action. I use 870 for a great many years and changed over to BPS.

 

[VinceMule]

Mike, I love my BPS. I was making the comment that most do not shoot, and many fumble a pump's action...fumble badly. Add a little stress of a coyote coming in on you at warp speed, you see how the stress really screws with a novice's gun handling.

 

[VinceMule]

I have 1100 that I have been hunting coyotes with since the mid-'80s, it never has jammed. Wipe off the mag tube, monitor the condition of the O ring.... pull the trigger. Not to mention that it takes 35% or so out of the Felt recoil.

We hunted predators out West and took a novice once a month. Even experienced shooters had problems with my 870's and Ithaca 37. I started carrying two Ithaca 10g Semi Auto's, and everyone wanted to hunt with me because those 32" barrels just slaughtered coyotes.

870s can have their problems also. Many police depts went with the Mossburg 500.

If you love a pump, you owe it to yourself to get three or 4 of the Browing BPS pumps.... great shotgun! The Brownings pattern is Tight per their choke.

My favorite shotgun now is the Beretta 391 with the kick-off system since I shoot a lot of 3" buckshot loads, it has never jammed...neither has the Beretta 390. LOVE gas-operated shotguns...recovery on follow-up shots is a lot faster than pumps and inertia shotguns.

 

[Mike Matteson]

I can in the field generally fix a problem with an 870, and have had them from the 70's. I have change to BPS several years back. My son use a BPS field trap. People around him couldn't believe just how fast he could put another round in place and shoot again. The other is I am not fan of auto-loaders either. Don't use them. Never had a problem that I couldn't fix in the field if there was a problem.

 

[shorthair1]

I have 1100 that I have been hunting coyotes with since the mid-'80s, it never has jammed. Wipe off the mag tube, monitor the condition of the O ring.... pull the trigger. Not to mention that it takes 35% or so out of the Felt recoil.

We hunted predators out West and took a novice once a month. Even experienced shooters had problems with my 870's and Ithaca 37. I started carrying two Ithaca 10g Semi Auto's, and everyone wanted to hunt with me because those 32" barrels just slaughtered coyotes.

870s can have their problems also. Many police depts went with the Mossburg 500.

If you love a pump, you owe it to yourself to get three or 4 of the Browing BPS pumps.... great shotgun! The Brownings pattern is Tight per their choke.

My favorite shotgun now is the Beretta 391 with the kick-off system since I shoot a lot of 3" buckshot loads, it has never jammed...neither has the Beretta 390. LOVE gas-operated shotguns...recovery on follow-up shots is a lot faster than pumps and inertia shotguns.

IMO you just can't beat a good Winchester model 12 for reliability, ease of operation and plain speed. And with no trigger disconnecter just hold it back and pump away.

 

[Mike Matteson]

IMO you just can't beat a good Winchester model 12 for reliability, ease of operation and plain speed. And with no trigger disconnecter just hold it back and pump away.

Never got one. I always wanted one. Use a model 97 years ago of a friend.

 

[436]

I worked with a guy back in the day when he was with Heckler & Koch as their LEO training VP and pro shooter, John Satterwhite, John was an American Olympic shooter and World Championship, and an amazing tactical shotgun shooter, in fact, Clint Smith was also working with him at the time, these were the days before Thunder Ranch, Clint was just getting that idea together, I digress, John was an amazing demo shooter, back then the Benelli M1 was just coming out and he H&K was pushing it pretty hard. So, I had John, Clint, and H&K who they worked for come in for an LEO school I was putting on, John did some trick shooting for the Officers, which they marveled in and loved to watch, this guy (John) was good. Here's the pearl; John didn't use the Benelli he used his 60's Winchester model 12 I later over dinner asked him why he used the model 12, and his answer was; "it's way faster, I can outrun the Benelli with my old model 12"... pulling some of the shot off he did you'd have to, he could manually operate the pump faster than the semi-auto because the semi-auto had mechanical limitation and the pump was only limited by the shooter's ability. Granted, the John Winchester model 12 was well tuned, one of the subject areas he got into with the class was how to tune pump shotguns, and the reason I now carry an Ithica model 37 12ga Deerslayer rifled barrel slug gun in Bear country. Just my 0.2 Cheers.

 

[Muddyboots]

So what would you think of solid steel slug? No expansion, just pure straight line penetration? Able to penetrate end to end through bone. No skull deflection, smash thru and break down any heavy bone? Just and interesting thought after 3 cups of coffee. Possibly as free release from sabot or even stays as one piece sabot like a Brennieke? Accuracy is really only needed to maybe 50 yards?

 

[Muddyboots]

Or just pull out the big dog!

 

[Pdvdh]

Steel is too low density, in my opinion.

A tungsten slug in a plastic sabot? Shoot thru 2 bears plus an engine block.
But cost prohibitive. Only need to shoot thru one bear.

The Brenneke style slugs are the happy middle ground. Reasonable cost and the density of their hardened lead is sufficient for penetration. They do sell a special forces grade of slug. A little harder than their standard grade slugs. For penetrating hard targets. Like an engine block.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Steel is too low density, in my opinion.

A tungsten slug in a plastic sabot? Shoot thru 2 bears plus an engine block.
But cost prohibitive. Only need to shoot thru one bear.

The Brenneke style slugs are the happy middle ground. Reasonable cost and the density of their hardened lead is sufficient for penetration. They do sell a special forces grade of slug. A little harder than their standard grade slugs. For penetrating hard targets. Like an engine block.

Gosh I can't imagine any 12 gauge slug not being good medicine for big bears. Having not researched the subject or heard of results from this, shotgun slugs are wicked at close range. Gotta believe one would easily penetrate a huge skull, chest or big shoulders up close.

 

[436]

So what would you think of solid steel slug? No expansion, just pure straight line penetration? Able to penetrate end to end through bone. No skull deflection, smash thru and break down any heavy bone? Just and interesting thought after 3 cups of coffee. Possibly as free release from sabot or even stays as one piece sabot like a Brennieke? Accuracy is really only needed to maybe 50 yards?

Not too sure I'd look at steel as a catch-all as a great Bear slug, though it's strong enough where it may fall down is, in penetration due to being lighter, yes... even though faster at the start out. I think where slugs like the Brenneke Black Magic Magnum have the edge is in its weight and harder cast lead, along with respectable velocity giving it the qualities that are needed to reliably (if that's real) get the job done. Putting steel in sabots or even copper jackets? I don't think that connects all the dots of physics, both rounds are a "give and take" in ballistics I just think the lead (Brenneke) has more check marks on its side than the other options.

Side note: Foster slug isn't in the game, great for Deer and such, better than a pointy stick for Big Bear. (just my thoughts)

I've found that lighter objects seem to slow down faster when met with resistance than do heavier ones of near the same diameter even at a higher velocity; the lighter ones. Now granted we could take this to a preposterous or nonsensical place and say "what if" the steel was traveling at 3000 fps, well technically I don't think that would be a shotgun anymore. By the way, if you put a well-designed sabot on a slug most of the time you are always looking at having to decrease its weight and diameter two factors needed in this conversation for a good Bear slug. Hey, just my 0.2 my friend... I could be completely wrong about the whole thing I've never killed a Big Bear with a slug...but I have a pretty good idea of what works due to its physics. Cheers.