Tikkamike
Well-Known Member
id say i have to agree
110 gr gsc elk bullet
- Thread starter tony m
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tony m
Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone for your feedback.I suppose the term long range means different things to different people, to me , 400 yards is a long shot.As I see it Gerard has it well covered for the ranges I shoot and you cannot do better than a bullet exiting after fragmentation.Bullet performance is the key, the headstamp means little....in my opinion
Gerard Schultz
Well-Known Member
Tikkamike,
How heavy do you want to go? We can supply a 1690gr SP bullet if you can build the rifle for it and drag it into the field with a helper.
The problem is that recoil will be something to contend with and practicality for shooting elk will be somewhat questioned?
How about a 420gr .375"? It will require a special rifle and will shoot out to distances that can only be imagined by some.
Where does one draw the line? In your experience (and your father) you would use a 300 of some description or bigger, a 180gr bullet, or heavier, because you have seen smaller calibers fail when using lead core bullets.
That is your experience and frame of reference. How about my experience and frame of reference? It differs from yours in the sense that I have been using GSC bullets since 1992 and you have not used them at all. How about entertaining a better mousetrap?
If tony m were not capable of shooting elk successfully at under 500, I would have said so. As it is, GSC recommended a bullet that will get the job done, given his equipment and given the task at hand. Are there other tools for the job? Of course there is, as there are tools that will not be suitable.
As I said in #23:
"Let's get things in perspective here. tony m is using a standard 270 Win with a standard length barrel. GSC recommended a 110gr HV because he wants a bullet that will feed from a magazine and a bullet that will allow him to get as far out as is possible with the setup that he has. Apples to apples please."
How heavy do you want to go? We can supply a 1690gr SP bullet if you can build the rifle for it and drag it into the field with a helper.
The problem is that recoil will be something to contend with and practicality for shooting elk will be somewhat questioned?
How about a 420gr .375"? It will require a special rifle and will shoot out to distances that can only be imagined by some.
Where does one draw the line? In your experience (and your father) you would use a 300 of some description or bigger, a 180gr bullet, or heavier, because you have seen smaller calibers fail when using lead core bullets.
That is your experience and frame of reference. How about my experience and frame of reference? It differs from yours in the sense that I have been using GSC bullets since 1992 and you have not used them at all. How about entertaining a better mousetrap?
If tony m were not capable of shooting elk successfully at under 500, I would have said so. As it is, GSC recommended a bullet that will get the job done, given his equipment and given the task at hand. Are there other tools for the job? Of course there is, as there are tools that will not be suitable.
As I said in #23:
"Let's get things in perspective here. tony m is using a standard 270 Win with a standard length barrel. GSC recommended a 110gr HV because he wants a bullet that will feed from a magazine and a bullet that will allow him to get as far out as is possible with the setup that he has. Apples to apples please."
tony m
Well-Known Member
This bigger is better practice is largley predicated on what we know based on what we have heard.Stepping away from this is uncomfortable, using some math and matching the requirements (within a reasonable margin of error )is makes the process interesting to me.To see this another way, as a gasfitter, why use a 24 "steel pipe wrench (because everybody else does) when a 10" alluminum using lubricating sealants will do...and is faster, more manueverable and you can put it in your back pocket.I can carry it all day.Cheers
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
From my experience when someone pulls the Apples to Apples card out all they have to bring to the table is Apples and are trying to narrow the conversation down so only their product will ever work!
I've loaded the 165 and 175 Matrix in multiple 270 Wins to mag length with 1-10 twist, those guys have taken probably 50+ elk and to a man not a single one of them would go back to the light fast bullet they were using.
It's abundantly clear when you shoot an elk in the neck with a small hard fast bullet, you skin them out and you find your little hole drilled through them and your know your lucky because shot placement alone covered your butt. An elk hit in the neck with a 165 Matrix will have a couple vertebra completely crushed to the point you have to drag them out carefully, even if you miss the spine it creates such a devastating permanent wound channel they drop.
Your new mouse trap is not new to many of us, many of us have shot light for cal bullet fast, for a lot of game it's great but elk it don't cut it with enough consistency.
LRH members have provided feedback, preference, etc ... on preferred bullet weight. However, what you do with the information is entirely up to you.
I'm no expert but I cannot think of a better group of hunters/shooters that best represent LR and to best endorse a bullet design ... just saying.lightbulb
gun)
I'm no expert but I cannot think of a better group of hunters/shooters that best represent LR and to best endorse a bullet design ... just saying.lightbulb
gun)Canadian Bushman
Well-Known Member
Everyone has the option to hunt with whatever they like whenever they like.
If you wanna shoot an elk with a 110 gn bullet, you are well within your right to do so, but i would wear very comfortable shoes.
If you wanna shoot an elk with a 110 gn bullet, you are well within your right to do so, but i would wear very comfortable shoes.
Gerard Schultz
Well-Known Member
bigngreen,
FEENIX,
If you feel it is ok to compare apples to oranges, so be it. However, if you want me to bring oranges to compare to your oranges, name the parameters. We have a listed range of more than 250 different bullets and another lot of custom bullets to choose from. That compares well to some other manufacturers.
From the Matrix website: "It's important to carefully consider stability when choosing a bullet. Your rifle barrel needs to have at least the twist rate that we recommend for a particular bullet." Matrix recommends that the 165gr .270" bullet be used with a 1:9" twist and the 175gr .270" bullet with a 1:8" twist rate. It is not a good thing to ignore the manufacturer's recommendation. They designed and built the bullet and should know what the requirement for the bullet is and sooner or later you will come short. AT GSC we prefer the consistency that staying within recommendations brings.
I will put money on it that no one used GSC HV bullets. Can you confirm that?
I searched around and found the pictures I took of a kudu we shot experimentally. Here they are and I do not see a little hole drilled anywhere, just broken shoulders and an exit hole.
It begs the question: Have this 'many of us' used GSC HV bullets, or did they use another make?
FEENIX,
What better group of shooters and reloaders to whom to introduce a new concept and a new way of doing that solves problems that others deemed not solvable? It does require that one keeps an open mind though.
Tikkamike
Well-Known Member
Tikkamike,
How heavy do you want to go? We can supply a 1690gr SP bullet if you can build the rifle for it and drag it into the field with a helper.
The problem is that recoil will be something to contend with and practicality for shooting elk will be somewhat questioned?
How about a 420gr .375"? It will require a special rifle and will shoot out to distances that can only be imagined by some.
Where does one draw the line? In your experience (and your father) you would use a 300 of some description or bigger, a 180gr bullet, or heavier, because you have seen smaller calibers fail when using lead core bullets.
That is your experience and frame of reference. How about my experience and frame of reference? It differs from yours in the sense that I have been using GSC bullets since 1992 and you have not used them at all. How about entertaining a better mousetrap?
If tony m were not capable of shooting elk successfully at under 500, I would have said so. As it is, GSC recommended a bullet that will get the job done, given his equipment and given the task at hand. Are there other tools for the job? Of course there is, as there are tools that will not be suitable.
As I said in #23:
"Let's get things in perspective here. tony m is using a standard 270 Win with a standard length barrel. GSC recommended a 110gr HV because he wants a bullet that will feed from a magazine and a bullet that will allow him to get as far out as is possible with the setup that he has. Apples to apples please."
I'm not going to get very deep into this but I'll correct you on a couple things. I have had light for caliber mono metal bullets fail on elk more than once. So the lead core argument is not valid. Secondly I have tried your bullets purely because of the high advertised bc. And as I found out they were very generously over calculated so I sold them because I like the Barnes tsx better ... I can absolutely positively say that weight does matter.... That isn't even up for debate. Physics are non negotiable. I will agree you can get away with a lighter bullet because of high weight retention... But you have to have the minimum required weight to start with...
Gerard Schultz
Well-Known Member
Tikkamike,
Thanks for getting back, I appreciate hearing from users out there.
However, we strive to state BC numbers that are not that far off reality and it would be really useful if you could tell me which bullet it was that was so far wrong.
It is interesting that you mention physics. That is precisely why GSC recommends a particular bullet for a particular application.
It is my opinion that we should use some perspective and consider various factors when making our choices. Example:
--------------------------------------
Gerard #16: There are lots of examples where distance is achieved without using weight. Weight is simply easier to use but, with a bit of design and science, one could get far.
Gerard #18:
When a bullet has a good BC and less weight it will have a shorter time of flight and can easily equal the wind drift resistance of a heavier bullet.
Gerard #23: weight is a secondary factor to using the correct bullet for the application.
Tikkamike #27:
weight doesnt matter???
---------------------------------------
This raises the question: To do long range hunting with a 300Win Mag, would you rather use a Hornady 220gr RN flat base FMJ or a Berger 185gr VLD - the Hornady is 35gr heavier?
When one considers only weight, the Hornady 220gr would be the logical choice. When one considers weight, design and construction, the picture changes dramatically. Instead of basing a decision on a single issue, any decision should be based on a variety of factors - the sum of the whole.
Thanks for getting back, I appreciate hearing from users out there.
Could you clarify whether these monometal bullets were GSC HV bullets or another make?
I must clarify this as it has come up a number of times and it is frustrating to find the right way to put it on the tech profile of a given bullet. GSC does not 'advertise' BC numbers as some other manufacturers do to make the product look good. We give a comprehensive technical data profile for just about all our bullets but found that these numbers are misconstrued or ignored. So the format of our technical profile is changing and we are making it more comprehensive. Amongst other changes, we now state: "BC values are calculated at standard Metro values and serve as a comparison between GSC bullets. Any comparison with the BC values of other manufacturers is not valid as there is currently no standard method in use."
However, we strive to state BC numbers that are not that far off reality and it would be really useful if you could tell me which bullet it was that was so far wrong.
It is interesting that you mention physics. That is precisely why GSC recommends a particular bullet for a particular application.
It is my opinion that we should use some perspective and consider various factors when making our choices. Example:
--------------------------------------
Gerard #16: There are lots of examples where distance is achieved without using weight. Weight is simply easier to use but, with a bit of design and science, one could get far.
Gerard #18:
When a bullet has a good BC and less weight it will have a shorter time of flight and can easily equal the wind drift resistance of a heavier bullet.
Gerard #23: weight is a secondary factor to using the correct bullet for the application.
Tikkamike #27:
weight doesnt matter???
---------------------------------------
This raises the question: To do long range hunting with a 300Win Mag, would you rather use a Hornady 220gr RN flat base FMJ or a Berger 185gr VLD - the Hornady is 35gr heavier?
When one considers only weight, the Hornady 220gr would be the logical choice. When one considers weight, design and construction, the picture changes dramatically. Instead of basing a decision on a single issue, any decision should be based on a variety of factors - the sum of the whole.
I don't think anyone is saying bullet weight alone is the deciding factor. The 165/175 Matrix, 169.5 Wildcat, and hopefully when Berger comes out with their 170, etc ... has most of the factors that members are looking for in LR hunting with very good success afield.
Gerard Schultz
Well-Known Member
Edd,
Only if the freebore is over size compared to the groove diameter of the barrel. We can correct this if we know what the diameter of the freebore is just ahead of the case mouth. If you are struggling with this, send me an e-mail at gerard(at)gscustomusa.com so that I can help. One should be able to do a reasonable load workup with no more than 20 shots, if all is well. More than that, contact me so that we can figure out why this is happening.
FEENIX,
Are these all .270" caliber bullets?
Only if the freebore is over size compared to the groove diameter of the barrel. We can correct this if we know what the diameter of the freebore is just ahead of the case mouth. If you are struggling with this, send me an e-mail at gerard(at)gscustomusa.com so that I can help. One should be able to do a reasonable load workup with no more than 20 shots, if all is well. More than that, contact me so that we can figure out why this is happening.
FEENIX,
Are these all .270" caliber bullets?
