1000 Yard Gun - .260 vs 6.5 Creedmoor

[etisll40]

On the bear thought, is a 41 magnum enough back up for a bear? I bought a Ruger, I think it's a Redhawk 41 magnum, is it enough. I have a smith and wesson 460 xvr magnum too, but it is too bulky with a 10 inch barrel for a back up.

 

[Crusty Buck]

Cold Finger, I visited your awesome state a couple of years ago, during the summer. Everything is big up there. A good friend of mine who lives in Achorage blessed my wife and I with the use of his truck, camping gear, and 460 S&W hiking stick. After talking to a dog sledder up on the Danali Highway, I'm not sure anything smaller than a 50 BMG is adequate. I guess common sense has to prevail, or you won't. Back to the thread though, the 6.5 seems to be an ideal projectile. It has the best BC and SD of any of the pills I've looked at, no matter what brass it's housed in. Thoughts?

Crusty Buck

 

[Pistol packer]

crusty, et.al.

i helped develope a 41 mag slug and load about 30 years ago. up to that time there was NO ONE who survived a bear ATTACK in alaska who had used a 44, 41, etc as bear defense. plenty had killed big bears with pistols as a hunt, but not surviving a bear attack. we started with 300 gr slugs in the 44 with this knowledge and from the work done in Africa with guides there using 44 mags as back up to their clients 460s and 458s etc. there was virtually no info in america on this type of shooting. talking to SSI ind. owner and reading all of elmer keiths articles i could find, plus p.o ackley and more, i found 335 gr hard cast slugs with or w/o cast checks at 1400 fps and a 310-320 gr in a 41 mag at same velocity were bear STOPPERS.. they have to have a very BIG front. the meplat is the key plus hard casting for max penetration. the keith SWC is too small on the front. the long wide nose on LBT's bullets and his shorter WN is the biggest frontal area available on commercial bullets and works like a charm. i have some that are almost full wadcutters but they are hard to work with.
since 1985, there have been MANY reports of people surviving bear ATTACKS using a 44 or equivalent pistol. some have been 9-10 foot grizzlies and some have been at point blank range. i have several customers and friends who have shot big bears at very short ranges and they all report the same thing-they dropped as if their heads were lopped off. one dispatched a 9 foot black here in montana. he was with F&G. same report. all find total penetration on the bear-often finding the slug going 1 foot or more into the ground after penetrating the bear and almost all of the slugs could be reshot if reloaded as there is virtually no marks other than rifling on the slugs. hope this answers your question.

 

[Cold Trigger Finger]

A 41 mag in better than nothing, way better. But it's a little small. . With 250 gr hard cast, ect. Flatnose. Bullets at 1200fps . Its about as good as it gets in the 41 . The 460 is a real bear pistol in the 5" barrel.
The best rifles to dump a bear start in 41 caliber and go up.
However the 375 will work well but it's Not a big gun! But it is a good one. The 375 Ruger Alaskan is a pretty dang good companion in Alaska.

I know this will probably be "uncool " but if I wanted more than standard velocity 6.5. I would go to the 264 win mag. But the truth is I just a beginner in this long range area. So my ideas aren't worth a lot beyond what I do. But I had a 264 and really liked it that's all.

 

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I did not see Pistol packers post.
I've never seen a 41 bullet over 250 grains. I think there would be a twist issue with bullets over 260 gr or so. I have used the 44mag. On a smaller brn.bear. 320gr.Cast Performance LFN. Pushed by 20gr of 296 . It worked. I didn't get bit. But I killed the bear with my rifle. I was thankful that I had the gun on me and that it kept me from bleeding. But I was underwhelmed with the killing performance. .

I don't want to get jammed up with the moderator so maybe we should continue this in its own thread somewhere. .
It's kind of the total opposite of a long range standard velocity rifle round.

 

[Crusty Buck]

Cold Trigger Finger,

Agreed, let's concentrate on on rifles, but tell me this; what was the longest shot you have made in Alaska? What were you hunting, using for a long arm, and the conditions under which the shot was made? Have you ever used the 6.5 on Brown Bear?

Pistol Packer, Your research has spurred my curriosity. It there another forum to discuss this on? I'm new to blogging.

Crusty Buck

 

[Cold Trigger Finger]

My single longest shot was up hill at a Sitka Blacktail forked horn buck. Rifle was a Montana Rifle Co. S.S. in 375 H+H shooting Federal High Energy 300 gr Bear Claws that chronographed 2700fps from that rifle. 23"barrel. Scope was a fixed Leupold .
Distance was close to 1500 feet it was in a freshly logged clearcut in S.E.Ak.
I called the shot at behind the T in the scapula and under the spine .. I was about 5" off my intended impact point. The bullet struck in front of the T and about 3" down from where I planned. Took the arteries off the top of the heart. Bullet hole was still in the scapula. .

I put that rifle together myself and had run about 400 rounds thru it that fall.
I knew I could make the shot. I called it and made the shot.


Any 6.5 ain't a bear gun. Bear guns start at the 411 KDF and go up. But I believe that world class dangerous game should be hunted up close and personal.

 

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Scope was a fixed 3x 20mm tube standard duplex . I put the point of the post approximately 6" above his back. Wind was relatively calm temp around 30 degree F.

 

[Crusty Buck]

Sounds like the 375 H&H has some decent balistics, and it sounds like you shoot it pretty well. If i get the opportunity to get to AK, will my 300 Win Mag work for Brownies if I load it heavy and hot?

CB

 

[backwoods83]

Plenty of grizzlies, black bear, elk, and moose have fallen to anything from a 6x47L, 7mm RM, 300wm, 338 ultra, etc... you don't need a canon, sounds like you need more practice, no offense. And yes a 300wm with a 200grn accubond or partition at 2800fps+ is plenty for a grizzly. To the poster that bought the 10fcp-k, its a great rifle, but if you wanted a 260 you could have got a 12 LRP for about the same $, mag fed target action, hs stock, "tackdriver"!

 

[Crusty Buck]

In reference to the 300 win mag and bear, that's kinda what I thought. I do have a friend in Achorage though that won't use anything less than a 338 win mag for the bear. His 06 works well for everything else. Concerning the FCP-k, my favorite gun broker and looked at all of Savages options, as well as Rem. The Long Range Hunter was definitely more spendy than the FCP, and it wasn't a heavy barrel. This gun will is destined to be my bench gun, with a few cyotes and prarie dogs mixed in. The other factor on my budget at the time was tooling up for a caliber not in my inventory. I can rebarell the FCP for the 260 at another time. I'd rather concentrate on good optics for now. So far I'm pleased with the FCP. The cute muzzle break on the end seems to tame it a little so bench time is way easier than the fore mentioned 300.

Thanks for the input.

CB

 

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Plenty of grizzlies, black bear, elk, and moose have fallen to anything from a 6x47L, 7mm RM, 300wm, 338 ultra, etc... you don't need a canon, sounds like you need more practice, no offense. And yes a 300wm with a 200grn accubond or partition at 2800fps+ is plenty for a grizzly. To the poster that bought the 10fcp-k, its a great rifle, but if you wanted a 260 you could have got a 12 LRP for about the same $, mag fed target action, hs stock, "tackdriver"!

I need to stay away from these questions sometimes. But, while I'm here I may as well.

There's alot of difference between the 308 and the 338 on bear where the perfact shot isn't possible. But, it needs bullet weight and tough construction.

I tried a lot of loads in my 338 RUM when I had it and kinda came to the conclusion that I couldn't improve on the factory 250 gr.Swift A Frame as a hunting load. They consistent chronographed 2900 fps from my rifle. I rate that load with the 375 H+H for bear.

 

[backwoods83]

Hey bud your right the fcp is a excellent shooter, the one I referenced is not the long range hunter, its actually called the model 12 long range precision, its a target action cut to accept a dbm and sits in a HS precision pro series stock and has a fluted black coated 26" barrel that is 1" at the muzzle the action is also coated, the 260 is an 8 twist, it is only offered in 260, 6.5 creedmore, and 243. My local dealer said 830 out the door. I haven't bought one but I have shot one in 260. It weighs a little over 14lbs with scope, base, rings, and bipod, so recoil was almost non exsistant. In all honesty I wouldn't be afraid to take a grizzly out to 250yrds with a 165 accubond from the 308 at 2825fps with Imr4064.

 

[backwoods83]

CTF, the 338rum would have likely served you best with a 265 barnes lrx over 91-95grns of Retumbo for about the same velocity and harder hits, although the a frame is a good bullet.