.260 vs 6.5 Creedmore

[nicholasjohn]

IF Hornday had made the 260 they would have done 3 things.
Made ammo with more consistent quality brass
Made ACCURATE Ammo, affordable like the CM, and up to it's spec/potential
Had it set from inception with 8 twist

That might have given the 260 a much better success at launch.
On the 9 twist, I had a Sako 75 sporter, grey wolf, shot first 2 in same hole at 200 yds, 3rd opened to 1-1.25" - over and over for 3-shot groups. Yes, in 260. Using both Federal 7/08 and Federal 308 brass necked down, 130 - Either Accubonds or Bergers, over H4350. That load with Bergers shot 1/2" at 200 in a Borden action rifle with Bartlein #3 8 twist. Yes, 260s will shoot great, but I used them enough to say, there is a tighter range of what makes one run at it's potential. Again the CM and 47 will, in my experience, be easier to find accuracy. As to any speed difference, no animal will know that in the field, and any drop/drift can be handled by a few clicks.

Not the first time, nor perhaps the last that Rem will mess up what might be a good thing.

I don't think Remington messed up at all - they just didn't do it as well as Hornady did it with the newer cartridge. They also didn't have as much to work with at the time. The 260 came to the market in a different day & age, and it was nothing more than a slight modification of an existing design. They necked down the 7-08, with no other changes, to accept a bullet that was of a less than popular diameter. It was their attempt to introduce a compromise between the 270 Winchester and their own 25-06, but in a short action rifle. If they had known what guys were going to want to do with it a couple of decades later, things might have been different from the beginning.

This whole long-range thing wasn't anything like what it is today back when they designed the 260. In those days, 300 yards was a long shot at a deer for most hunters, and VLD bullets were not yet all the rage. Hunters sighted in 3" high at a hundred yards and shot mostly flat-based bullets,. Scopes didn't have repeatable adjustments like they do today, bullets weren't as well balanced, and barrels weren't as accurate. All these things have improved enormously, and Hornady improved the cartridge to get it caught up with the rest of the program. This was a very smart move, and it was well thought out. So was their marketing program, which is an essential ingredient. The marketing is about the only thing that Remington actually screwed up, and it seems that they are famous for that.

 

[SEGARE]

^^THIS^^

 

[6.5BR]

I don't think Remington messed up at all - they just didn't do it as well as Hornady did it with the newer cartridge. They also didn't have as much to work with at the time. The 260 came to the market in a different day & age, and it was nothing more than a slight modification of an existing design. They necked down the 7-08, with no other changes, to accept a bullet that was of a less than popular diameter. It was their attempt to introduce a compromise between the 270 Winchester and their own 25-06, but in a short action rifle. If they had known what guys were going to want to do with it a couple of decades later, things might have been different from the beginning.

This whole long-range thing wasn't anything like what it is today back when they designed the 260. In those days, 300 yards was a long shot at a deer for most hunters, and VLD bullets were not yet all the rage. Hunters sighted in 3" high at a hundred yards and shot mostly flat-based bullets,. Scopes didn't have repeatable adjustments like they do today, bullets weren't as well balanced, and barrels weren't as accurate. All these things have improved enormously, and Hornady improved the cartridge to get it caught up with the rest of the program. This was a very smart move, and it was well thought out. So was their marketing program, which is an essential ingredient. The marketing is about the only thing that Remington actually screwed up, and it seems that they are famous for that.

Well Sir, we agree to disagree. Remington made a factory 140 Corelokt quoted, if I recall correctly at 2750 mv, tests of actual ammo reported in major gun magazines showed 2,550. Accuracy was nothing stellar either. That's just the facts. Rem overhyped and under delivered.

 

[Quintus]

There is no question Remington half-a$$ed the 260 spit-balling to see if it would take rather than making it stick as Hornady ultimately did with the Creed. That does not however diminish what a great cartridge the 260 is with current ammo, rifles, and easy handloading.

 

[Deleted member 48126]

The only reason to hate Remington is because you're clearly compensating for owning a savage.

 

[SEGARE]

Remington designed a round that met its goals- a light kicking deer killer with 300yd accuracy

 

[bamban]

And, the 260 still holds the Camp Perry National match record for the 2400 point aggregate....the record holder could probably do it that day with whatever cartridge she was shooting.

 

[Pmacc60]

I think that the 260 rem and the 6.5 CM were created of two different worlds . The 260 was developed to give deer hunters a light recoiling hunting cartridge that got picked up by the long range competitive shooting world. Remember at the time when Remington introduced the 260 the .264/6.5 was not very popular with the American hunter. The 6.5 CM was developed for the long range shooter that was around for a long while until Hornady marketed brilliantly for the hunting public.

Lets not be so hard on Remington , they started from a completely different place with the 260 than Hornady . Hornady had someone take advantage of the 6.5 niche with great performance in the competitive arena and marketed the super cartridge with the killer name the Creedmoor ! It even sounds like a mans rifle , got me a Creedmoor don't need anything else! Also it's noteworthy that the CM was around for years before it took off. Faster twist rates , longer bullets and a longer necked case combined with the success in the long range community created the perfect storm and Hornady didn't miss. Truth is Remington probably would have blown the marketing on this as they have through the past decades ,!

 

[Quintus]

The 260 Rem did not get "picked up" by the LR Comp world, quite the other way around. After a little success in the long range match arena by a well known gun writer (not the first to neck down the 308 to .264) Remington saw an opportunity for a very low cost cartridge introduction with built in media support. With 2 minutes of objective thought to realize there is zero downside to an 8 twist Vs. 9 but a huge downside the other way around (see lessons NOT learned 6mm Rem) they would have had a better start. Maybe 3 legit load offerings and some advertising and they had the market cornered. What they didn't have was LRH, FaceChat, or really internet in general. That is part of why it took the Creed 10 years. Hornadys words finally got out.

 

[bamban]

The 6.5 CM was designed on a napkin by two friends while at Camp Perry during one of the Nationals Matches; One from Hornady and the other a National Champion level shooter, a former Marine, and was the President of Creedmoor Sports at that time. The Hornady guy made it happen....the full intent was for across the course matches to shoot magasine length ammo with high BC bullets not stuffed too much inside the case.

Across the course matches are shot at 200 yards standing, 200 yards rapid fire, 300 yards rapid fire, and 600 yards slow fire

 

[MTGunner]

Continuing to monitor this post with much interest for each cartridge due to the facts that there has been so information and opinions offered.
Having said this, my range days are normally Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. This often allows me to have the entire range to myself and peace and quiet. My normal range day with my 260AI constitutes one shot every 15-20 minutes as I want cold bore shots. My loads are 120 Nosler BT atop 47.0 grains of H4350. These chronograph at 2970+/- a deviation of 25fps.
My point is that these are hunting loads that I practice all three shooting positions to continue attempting accuracy as my old bones age. I do not shoot off the bench any longer unless I am working up load development. There are no shooting benches in the mountains. But, I do practice with a bipod.
Cannot actually say my 260AI is anymore accurate than a 6.5 Creedmore as do not own a Creedmore. But, whatever you employ to hunt with it is important to practice with under hunting, shooting conditions. I have dragged this Remington 700 mountain rifle and my old butt from the desert to mountains with this rifle. It has not let me down unless it was my lack of shooting prowess to blame.....and it happens to all at some time or another. Not at all embarrassed to say that I DO miss at times. So, back to the range to practice, practice and practice more.
Keep up the good posts gentlemen as I enjoy the input and can still learn at my age. MTG

 

[Pmacc60]

The 260 Rem did not get "picked up" by the LR Comp world, quite the other way around. After a little success in the long range match arena by a well known gun writer (not the first to neck down the 308 to .264) Remington saw an opportunity for a very low cost cartridge introduction with built in media support. With 2 minutes of objective thought to realize there is zero downside to an 8 twist Vs. 9 but a huge downside the other way around (see lessons NOT learned 6mm Rem) they would have had a better start. Maybe 3 legit load offerings and some advertising and they had the market cornered. What they didn't have was LRH, FaceChat, or really internet in general. That is part of why it took the Creed 10 years. Hornadys words finally got out.

I should have explained that clearer , yes the 260 was Jim Carmichel's baby but I wasn't speaking of the wildcat I was saying the cartridge commercial loading and rate of twist was developed for the hunter in mind in a time of faster lighter bullets. I was speaking of the comparison of factory loaded ammunition .The target community found some use and records as well but at the time 7mm was king and the 6.5 / 260 cal did not do well in the states .
The 6mm Remington is a different story , Remington entered its new 244 into the market with a 1:12 twist barrels built as a varminter shooting 90 grain and lighter bullets. The 243 win was introduced as a light deer/varmint combo with a 1:10 twist barrel and 100 grain factory ammo. It took off and the 244 was killed by the writers of the time. Remington changed the twist and name but the damage was done!
Remington did a nice job at the time and it isn't because of a 1:8 twist barrel , most shooters out there barely understand the reason for faster and slower twist, this forum is comprised of the exceptionality knowledgeable ! 80% of the guys out there have their rifles dead on at a hundred yards and their good, an anyone tell me they can tell the difference between the 260 and the 6.5 CM?

 

[Savage 12BVSS]

There is no difference between a 260 and 6.5CM at all in the eyes of game animals, I hear it said that the CM is easier to get accuracy out of..........finding the right load out of quite a lot of variables for any cartridge takes time and effort. I would prefer a 260AI myself

 

[cajun]

The creedmoor has magical powers haha. I must say it was the easiest load development I've ever done. Copy original Hornady load done.