full length or neck sizing on a short fat case?

Thanks everyone for your input. I have no experience with the short fat cartridges, and was told that they are difficult to reload compared to other cases. But as I'm seeing from the comments, this is not true. From now on, I will be reloading using a F/L die, seeing that next sizing isn't necessary.
 
I wouldn't say that "neck sizing doesn't work". In fact, it works just fine... for about 4-6 firings on your brass. Then you'll start to feel a little click when open the bolt. A couple more firings and that click will take a little more pressure to overcome and that's when you start to think about FL sizing or even annealing to "save your brass".

A few years ago I was writing a magazine article discussing the latest annealer. Being a skeptic data analyst. I dove off into the study of cartridge brass metallurgy to test some of the claims that sounded more like hype than science... got a real education in the huge variety of phase changes that brass responds too. Relative to this discussion, when case pressure builds during firing the brass completely expands to the chamber dimension, then shrinks only slightly once the bullet has left, allowing for extraction. If you keep that range of expansion/contraction within about a .001-.002" range cartridge brass alloy can repeat this movement almost indefinitely without any metallurgic change because brass does not work-harden in the same fashion that steel or aluminum does.

Run it through a FL die, keeping the dimensional grow/shrink in the proper range and the cases will reset back to a consistent size all the time. But keep hammering them at the max dimension (neck-size only) and they will harden at that max dimension and lose the shrink factor -- usually leading to difficult case extraction in less than 10 firings. As a side note, when I was testing this, I found that the typical case annealing processes would only bring back the hardened brass for one or two before it was click-y again. Conversely there was no perceived benefit to annealing brass that was always FL resized. The benefit of always FL resizing to that nominal 1.5-2 thou movement is to maintain the full range of growth/shrink ability in the case material.
I'm not a competitive shooter and I own several hundred cartridge cases for all the rifles I own.

I'm a hunter that also likes to shoot at the range and achieving maximum accuracy without having to become a cartridge engineer and succumbing to chasing all the minutia that I could get lost in has been my goal.

I started neck sizing my brass with the Lee Collet die and after 5-6 firings, rather than going through annealing, shoulder bumping, full length sizing and fireforming brass again I simply recycled the brass as scrap.

So doing the math, if I have say 300 cases for a particular rifle, and each case only lasts 5 firings with neck sizing only then I can fire that particular bunch of brass a total of 1500 times before I need new brass. What's the problem here? I see a lot of solutions without problems in this discussion. Hunters rarely if ever fire a rifle that many times.

I get it that F Class shooters and true actual competitors may need to eek out as many firings as possible for each case they have carefully crafted but really guys and gals? This is a hunting forum and since it seems that many of us admit that best, or nearly so, accuracy is achieved by neck sizing only then why chase the time consuming rituals that competitive shooters feel they need to do?

In summary, my solution has been over the last 20 years, has been to neck only size my brass for almost all of my cartridges and to use good quality brass in the first place and toss the brass that starts to need more than neck sizing.

By the way 223 and 308 and several of my other non-magnum cartridges can go more than 5 firings and the brass is very cheap for most of them anyway so no issues there.

I have seen so many hunting forums become dominated by people that are either competitive shooters or competition wannabes and a lot of hunters end up thinking that they need to follow their lead or they can't achieve great accuracy. Meanwhile the guys that have been handloading for a long time (over 50 years for me) just keep reading all this rhetoric about all the stuff that is supposedly necessary to achieve accuracy and shaking our heads as we consistently shoot bug hole groups with minimal case prep and bother.

I imagine I'll get a lot of flak for this post, but I've been around several forums, including this one, since their inception and have seen this same discussion repeated many many times and the newbies get frustrated by all the stuff they read that they need to do and end up just giving up or shooting strictly factory ammo.

It ain't rocket science. More power to the people that enjoy the minutia that comes with intricate brass prep. I just never found it necessary and anyone that wants to bring a couple of rifles here to Tallahassee and pay the $10 guest fee to my range and shoot with me will quickly either walk away in denial or become a believer. It just ain't so people.
 
I have only ever FL sized and close to a dozen short fat cases, SAUMs, WSMs, the 6.8W, etc. They were all easy. Only issues I have ever had was 270 WIN and 280 AI have gotten stuck or close to stuck.
 

IMHO this guy is an idiot! He is making rash claims that have zero foundation.

If neck sizing is done correctly, there is nothing wrong with it.

I used to hang on on CAL Gun when I lived in CA, some guy posted a video from a guy claiming that Neck Sizing will blow up your gun, HUH?

If you are neck sizing and blow up a gun, it wasn't the neck sizing! If you are neck sizing and your groups get larger, it wasn't the neck sizing!
YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG!

When I challenged the guy to prove it, his response was "This guy can out shoot you any day of the week!" Truly expected the next statement to be "My Dad can kick your Dad's ***" Talk about childish.

I not going to argue that neck sizing is better, it is just another technique. 98% of the stuff we do is VooDoo, we do them because we believe it works

I have a loading system that works for me, plain and simple. Can't tell you that everything I do to a case makes a difference. The difference is it increases my confidence, that is reason enough for me to continue to do it.
 
IMHO this guy is an idiot! He is making rash claims that have zero foundation.

If neck sizing is done correctly, there is nothing wrong with it.

I used to hang on on CAL Gun when I lived in CA, some guy posted a video from a guy claiming that Neck Sizing will blow up your gun, HUH?

If you are neck sizing and blow up a gun, it wasn't the neck sizing! If you are neck sizing and your groups get larger, it wasn't the neck sizing!
YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG!

When I challenged the guy to prove it, his response was "This guy can out shoot you any day of the week!" Truly expected the next statement to be "My Dad can kick your Dad's ***" Talk about childish.

I not going to argue that neck sizing is better, it is just another technique. 98% of the stuff we do is VooDoo, we do them because we believe it works

I have a loading system that works for me, plain and simple. Can't tell you that everything I do to a case makes a difference. The difference is it increases my confidence, that is reason enough for me to continue to do it.
It took a while, but I knew the hate mail from the Vatican was coming.
 
Well if you want to toss your brass after 5 firings it's a free country. A lot of my brass is expensive stuff I don't want to throw it away if I can avoid it. Minimal full length sizing is not detrimental to accuracy as proved by the majority of competitive shooters who do. It is also not detrimental to brass life if done properly. It also ensures that as a hunter my brass will always chamber in a hunt regardless of conditions. I don't see a downside. If you have a system that works for you great. Keep on keeping on.
 
I just spent $650 on 300 pieces of 7mm WSM brass from Bertram. The last thing I want to do is throw it in the trash after 4-5 reloads, especially since it's so hard to find, never mind the cost. Quality WSM and SAUM brass is expensive and hard to find, WSM more so. IMO if I treat it properly it should last up to 15 reloads. WSM or "short fat cases" should be full length resized, bumping back the shoulders slightly until they chamber in your rifle. I use the Redding Competition Shell holders in my process. I also anneal after every firing. Do what works for you and put together your own process after experimenting.
 
Recently I decided on a new rifle chambered in 6.8W. Now looking at all the reloading dies available, I see most brands are offering a full-size die set, there are a few that offer a neck sizing die. Which is better for a short fat cartridge like the 6.8W? I reload quite a few different calibers already, new cases are full length sized, after they are fire formed, the cases are then neck sized only. But now having my first short and fat cases to deal with, I'm not sure if I can or should reload as I have with other the calibers I have.
Always full length size all cases every time. Easy button and no issues until the case life has ended.
 
I used to neck size and then shoulder bump when necessary. For years now I have full length sized, bumping the shoulder back .002 Less messing around, and no loss of accuracy that I can see.
 
When I challenged the guy to prove it, his response was "This guy can out shoot you any day of the week!" Truly expected the next statement to be "My Dad can kick your Dad's ***" Talk about childish.
It's good to see someone recognizing arguments taken to this & similar directions as bogus (Logical Fallacies).
Also glad that you're committed to YOUR plan, regardless.
 
So doing the math, if I have say 300 cases for a particular rifle, and each case only lasts 5 firings with neck sizing only then I can fire that particular bunch of brass a total of 1500 times before I need new brass. What's the problem here? I see a lot of solutions without problems in this discussion. Hunters rarely if ever fire a rifle that many times.
That math doesn't work for some of us here.
Our brass is fire formed to stable before we have stable results.
2-3 fire formings of 300 cases, at a case life of 5, leaves only 2 long range hunting shots each (600 total remaining) before we would have to replace the whole batch & start over.. That would also be the time to replace the barrel.
Some of us would see this as a problem, needing solution.

Going with a viable plan to get 15, 30, or 50+ reloads from cases, and reducing the case batch to ~50 pieces per barrel, changes all the numbers for the better. That's my solution.
My endeavor is killing groundhogs to 650yds. That's not a lot of field shooting,, around ~100/yr.
Maybe I enjoy my shooting range too much...
 
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