WTH is with these scope prices??

[rcdinaz]

okay you got me I have been duped....

 

[ken snyder]

Eye relief and amount of elevation, windage adjustments are about the only improvement that can be found in high prices. Good glass is good glass. The New SF scopes have finally made it the old AO Sharpness and clarity standards. Do rifle scopes come with some sort of a light wavelength distortion number like telescopes?? what is the comparison standard other than opinion which doesn't seem to have a very long shelf life.

If a person ends up with more in a scope than the rifle they are absolutely doing it backwards. Lets take an inexpensive scope and rate it by its reviews. I did some snooping around on the Vortex Viper and what did I find, I found that people with them are generally over all happy with them and an occasional detractor that would rather complain about it than send it back.

I ask myself one big question: which scopes can I actually out shoot, it is pretty hard to do, while being a better shot than a particular rifle can be very easy to do.

 

[ken snyder]

I just flipped over to camera land again. Zeis Conquest for 790 bucks, can I out shoot that one, H E double tooth picks, the answer is no!

 

[rcdinaz]

Ken, I have not seen any distrotion numbers like you mention. bruce_ventura may see the post and chime in I beleive he works in some type of lab where they can measure optics values and does this kind of work so has this expertise. There are a few others on this forum as well that could probably answer that. Certainly as you mention one thing that differentiated many scopes was how precise parrallax adjustment is which actually potential impact on accuracy. It would be interesting to know if there are values measured for rifle scopes that could be reported as well as info on light transmission. Everyones eyes are not exactly the same and we know some scopes appear pink, green, blue, etc to some people and not to others. I think even this small detail is why people think some scopes are clearer than others. My NXS looks blue to me compared to my other scopes. Not good or bad just different.

Oh and I agree the Zeiss scopes are one of the best values out there.

If you are looking for more technical reviews this is a good site, no ads or sales so I think it is okay to post:
Home

 

[ken snyder]

I am concerned that my post might sound like an advertisement or even a Brand recommendation! - I agree that the last two lenses are very important to a scope and those are shooting glasses and our eyes.

 

[load]

good eye relief and sf parallax is found on scopes much less expensive than 4000 these two small things don't run up costs comparatively I have a scope in the 250$ range that has sf and one in the 500 range that has sf. both are sharp and clear and both parallax adjustment work just fine. the scope in the 500 dollar range has 140 moa of adjustment. some companies are just riding the bubble created by 2 wars were longrange optics are in demand the bubble will pop.

 

[rcdinaz]

Ken I was referring to the link I posted as not being any kind of advertisement not your posts...

 

[rcdinaz]

If you go by that logic then guns would be way more. I paid $450 in 1995 for my Rem Model 700 BDL in .243. I was in Sportsmans Warehouse the other day and for nearly the same rifle it was like $575. I put a Leu VXIII on my .243 for $350. Try buying one of them for that now days! If you went with about the same rate of change that scope should be $450.00 Good luck!!

It sounds like we are having an argument here and I don't really want to be argumentative just sharing my perspective on some of these things. The example above almost tracks exactly with what Tuklu posted regarding salaries. Specifically a 1995 scope at $350 adjusted only for inflation not the insane cost of materials we have seen as China has risen to economic power is about $525 which is about what you can get a VXIII for today on the low end. Also remember the Fed has been printing money at an insane rate the last 5-6 years which pretty much screws average people especially in a recession.

For the record Sako I agree with your original post completely and bought my last scope used they are ridiculously expensive compared to the items we have let go to the far east for production. I am not sticking up for a particular optics company just that I don't think any of them are making any kind of crazy profit margins. I find most shooting, hunting and other outdoor equipment companies are generally in business first because they are addicted to their particular activities and second to try and make money at it. I think it is one of the last areas of business where the companies are not simply there to make money.

Hopefully I did not drag the topic too far off track!

 

[Greyfox]

A lot of this discussion centering around macro economics while somewhat relevant, has been in play for most of our lives. I could be wrong but I believe the products and prices in the OP's post has everything to do with a new and meaningful market develping in the shooting space. This space is reflected by what is discussed on this site and others on a regular basis and is growing at a rapid rate. To the manufacturers this segment is in an early phase of development compared to the more mature market of shooters and hunters that shoot their game or targets at 100, maybe 200 yards with a rifle and scope that costs under $700. This new segment buys or constructs rifles that cost substantially more, scopes like the Nightforce are standard by which all others are judged, and this doesn't include, range finders, spotting scopes, reloading supplies, etc. Much of the technique and technology is derived from the long range military practices. The best and priciest of any of these components get the most praise when you read the success stories from this segment(and the tactical crowd as well) not always, but certainly with thought leaders. The scope manufacturers see this and want a piece of the action, particularly if the trend continues. If it does continue, volumes will go up, relative prices should come down and and perhaps a new set of market leaders will show up. This same dynamic has occurred in my area of business over the last 10 years, different market, same effect. If you would like more info on this, google: Geoffrey Moore, Crossing the Chasm.

 

[SidecarFlip]

You can't because the auto makers see the consumer paying 8 grand for a rifle scope and reason that he doesn't require an 8 grand car. But they could be made for that price. People would still buy the silly luxury cars with all those options that work for the first year, usually. That's American cars. Don't want to insult the quality car makers.

I stated a while back that cars really don't cost more now than they did 30 years ago and they don't. The 'appear' to cost more because the vehicle you use to pay for them (money, currency, Federal Reserve Notes, is worth much less than it was 30 years ago, so it takes more of them. That's a product of inflation and no manufacturer can control it, they (manufacturers just go along for the ride...so do I). That scenario applies to everything tangible. People need to understand that, they may not like it, but it's the way it is.

It's called economics......

 

[SidecarFlip]

good eye relief and sf parallax is found on scopes much less expensive than 4000 these two small things don't run up costs comparatively I have a scope in the 250$ range that has sf and one in the 500 range that has sf. both are sharp and clear and both parallax adjustment work just fine. the scope in the 500 dollar range has 140 moa of adjustment. some companies are just riding the bubble created by 2 wars were longrange optics are in demand the bubble will pop.

I got a chuckle out of the above comment....

Those companies that are touting their optics as being used in recent conflicts, and Police and Law enforcement......lets name one....Nightforce....., another Carl Zeiss....

Do so as the lowest bidder status. They are there because they were the most competitive out of all the bid submissions and that included especially DOD bidding....

I hear the 20 grand coffee pot argument but in optics, there are quite a few bidders with essentially the same quality and specification product so it becomes a matter of lowest pricing.

Of of course Nightforce or any other company that touts it's government involvement (or law enforcement) ever states they were the cheapest. One needs to understand how that works and then....chuckle.

Maybe NF or Ziess charges more because they gave hundreds of scopes to the military or local law enforcement and now, you as a consumer, get to make up the difference..... ever think about that????

*I apologize for my ragged spelling and punctuation, I have a pulled tendon in my wrist and it's cramping my indoor pistol shooting too.....

 

[devins]

You guys are, as always, putting forth some great points. 2 things keep coming to mind for me. One, why can I not find any of these good deals on used scopes around my area? I think because we are all holding onto them if they are good, so I will watch the estate sales better(as other guys have already said). And two, am I a victim of the sales hype? I feel like I am an oddball in a lot of ways. I have a 1917 enfield, sporterized and chambered in 308 Norma Mag that shoots half MOA and a nice VX 3 on it. It killed 8 animals in Africa with one shot and no tracking kills. On the other hand I have a blueprinted 260 AI that Ted Built for me, he worked my enfield over too, that is quarter MOA with a Viper PST, (my wife and staff purchased the scope to celbrate 20 years in practice but went to order the nightforce and they couldn't promise a delivery date). That rig is awesome, thanks again Ted, of Ted's Custom Shop. He also just rebarreld and chambered a select match grade Shilen on my hand me down Sako that was 22-250, now 22-250 AI. We did the Melonite/Nitride on the barrel and the finish ends up great. It was my Granddad's go to coyote rifle. It is about as old as me and so is the scope. I started looking around for a new one. That old one doesn't look really cool and doesn't have big turrets on it like "I need". But you know it really is clear. And if you use that adjustable objective it works very well on prairie dogs. And that fine reticle works great and the power is adequate, but that thing is old. You get my point. Quality is quality even if it is a Weaver that doesn't look as cool. Am I going to make a 1000 yard shot on a prairie dog with it? No but that probably has as much to do with the caliber as it does the scope, right? My Dad shoots some with me and we are building him a new 6mm varmint rifle for Colorado prairie dogs. He still gets a little bit excited when he talks about his army days and what he used to see guys doing with open sights at 1000 yards. Maybe I need to practice more with what I have and spend more time enjoying the doing rather than the wanting the latest and the greatest. Besides I do like pawn shops and estate sales when the Oklahoma wind is blowing too high to shoot anyway.

 

[Bravo 4]

I got a chuckle out of the above comment....

Those companies that are touting their optics as being used in recent conflicts, and Police and Law enforcement......lets name one....Nightforce....., another Carl Zeiss....

Do so as the lowest bidder status. They are there because they were the most competitive out of all the bid submissions and that included especially DOD bidding....

I hear the 20 grand coffee pot argument but in optics, there are quite a few bidders with essentially the same quality and specification product so it becomes a matter of lowest pricing.

Of of course Nightforce or any other company that touts it's government involvement (or law enforcement) ever states they were the cheapest. One needs to understand how that works and then....chuckle.

Maybe NF or Ziess charges more because they gave hundreds of scopes to the military or local law enforcement and now, you as a consumer, get to make up the difference..... ever think about that????

*I apologize for my ragged spelling and punctuation, I have a pulled tendon in my wrist and it's cramping my indoor pistol shooting too.....

I'm not much on conspiracy theories, but I think the reason we (the military) get some of our equipment is because somebody is lining theirs pockets. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. How do companies like Remington, Leupold, and Knight's Armament always seem to win when there is better equipment to be had. Some would say price... maybe, but not as much as you would think. I know for a fact that we pay more for some of our equipment then the "average" American would. You would crap your pants if you knew how much a Knight's Armament M110 cost! I'm responsible for my section's equipment and I know how much this stuff cost, I've seen the receipts. There are some out there like NIGHTFORCE that take it the other way. Not many guys know that the scopes the military gets from them are not the same as the ones sold to the public. There is a more robust version for MIL/LE only sales, and we can get them cheaper then what the public version sales for. This might be a case when the last statement in the the QUOTE above from SidecarFlip is true.
I apologize too, I just had a metal plate surgically implanted in my neck and I'm trying not to take any pain pills. So please look past any ****y posts I have in the near future. I've got nothing better to do!

 

[SidecarFlip]

Bravo...

No metal here just a ---- up wrist. Amazing how one can do damage with a simple quick jerk... I'm a puss when it comes to pain.... I feel yours too. It has really put a damper on my wintertime pistol shooting......

The government bidding process in itself is very complex, actually very complex....i'm very familiar with it. It's not to say that there isn't some pocket lining but if caught, both the supplier and the government representative would be prosecuted by the DIS which is the DOD's equivalent of the FBI. The DOD has it's own enforcement and compliance division. Yes they carry sidearms and yes, they are very discreet and professional.

I realize in politics there ia all kinds of shady deals but Defense Contract Management is always very cognizant of what it's doing... Lets just say I have very good information concerning Defense Contract Management and procurement and we will leave it at that.