Why not lazzeroni rifles?

[MontanaRifleman]

Idaho Redneck ,,,,,,,

I don't happen to be of the school that wind drift numbers are everything, although knowing what they are at long range is vitally important, as is trajectory ,,,,

I also don't like bullets that are too heavy for the caliber chosen ,,,, they tend to be inefficient for the caliber ,,,,,, and it becomes harder and harder to drive them fast and still maintain accuracy ,,,,,

the ONLY other piece of brass available in the market place today that will fit into a carryable bolt action hunting rifle, and run with the Lazzeroni, is the 378 WBY brass ,,,,, and the same performance can be achieved with it, "with" the correct chamber/throat design ,,,,,, (stock WBY chambers are NOT correct for this type of loading and shooting)))

these are undisputable facts and part of the Lazzeroni record ,,,,,

John,

We have spent the last 4 or 5 pages going back and forth and you have still not backed up the above statements with any facts.

I am not challenging the quality of your rifles or how well you can shoot. I AM challenging the above statements.

The indisputable facts are that when it comes to LONG RANGE, wind IS EVERYTHING. If there was no wind, cold bore first shot hits on targets to as far as your rifle could shoot would be easy. Just dial in the drop and shoot.

I have said more than once, the the Warbird is a fine chambering. It is in fact a bigger case than the 300 RUM. And it is basically equal to the Lapua Imp. That IS an indisputable fact. No chest thumping here, just facts.

Would love to kill some rocks with you if you make it up this way, but I would recommend leaving the 150 gr bullets back in Tuscon.

Time to bow out now and I leave you the last word.

 

[LazzInc]

Kirby and Mr Montana ,,,,,

1,000 yard BR accuracy IS relevant for hunting, whether you are lying in the dirt from a bi-pod, or shooting from the bench table using your 1,000+ yard rig ,,,,,,

in the early 2000s I set the (then) Tucson 1,000 yard range record for high score in the heavy gun class, 272 out of a possible 300, using Berger bullets ,,,, (((and I have NOT one bad thing to say about Berger bullets))) ,,,,,

but regardless of which case you guys overload, to achieve your bragging rights to 3,172 fps with the .308 dia, 230gr Berger bullet, I would guess that you do NOT achieve minute of angle or less accuracy at 1,000 yards,,,, might not even be less than 2 minutes of angle ,,,,, am I correct ? ,,,,,,, ((that bullet is just too long to drive that fast & still retain accuracy ,, IMO)))

and we can all ROLL around in the dirt shooting if you think it will help, but unless you CAN achieve minute of angle or less accuracy at 1,000 yards with your favorite hunting rifle/load combo, then all of the ballistics tables, showing wind drift advantages etc, all just evaporate with that same wind ,,,,,,,,,

1,000 yard bench rest shooters push the envelope for us all to see, and believe me when I tell you that if the 230gr Berger bullet, at 3,172 fps was more accurate and would buck the wind better than what those bench rest guys are currently using, they would be all over them ,,,,,

Lefty ,,,,,,,

I do not know who your brother in-law was emailing, but I always answer my email ((I personally answer on average of over 100 emails per day))) ,,,,,,

as for the cost of re-barreling the Big Lazz model 2000/2005 rifles ,,,,,, (((not the Sako TRG-S)) ,,,, it would run around $1,900.00 by the time I purchased the new Schneider barrel blank, Vais muzzle brake, paid for the machining to rebarrel/thread/set head-space and then re-metal finish the receiver & barrel assembly in NP3 ,,,,,

 

[Tikkamike]

After reading all of this you can go ahead and mark me down fo NEVER BUYING A LAZZERONI Rifle. Which is a shame because when I was a kid I used to look at the Lazz rifles in reloading manuals and dream of someday owning one. That will never happen...John you are truly a Grade AAA Jackwagon, You are Snide, Pompus, and EXTREMELY unprofessional in conduct. I cant believe the things you are saying... What ever happened to being humble? Everyone knows about your rifles and obviously they must be nice rifles. But I assure you that acting like this on a public forum is doing nothing but harm to your business and your own personal reputation. Maybe you should grow up and act like a professional. I would Love to see Len refund your sponsorship money and not associate this site with you any more....stay classy

 

[MudRunner2005]

John...What exactly is the NP3 coating? I figured it was like a moly at first, but if you can finish the barrel and reciever in it, it appears to be more like Nitride coating. Which is pretty cool if you're nitride coating the actions and barrels and the bullets. That would be some ultra-low friction in that barrel.

 

[LazzInc]

Tikkamike ,,,,,,

I respect your opinion and the right to state it ,,,,,,,,,

allow me the chance to change your opinion again in the future ,,,,,,,,,

 

[LazzInc]

NP3 is a special coating from ROBAR company in Phoenix AZ ,,,,,,,,

I believe the correct term for it is "Electroless -Nickel/Teflon" ((maybe someone with more knowledge than I can jump in))) ,,,,,,

but I have been using it on the Lazzeroni rifles and our bullets since I started in 1995 and it DOES work ,,,,,,,

 

[MudRunner2005]

NP3 is a special coating from ROBAR company in Phoenix AZ ,,,,,,,,

I believe the correct term for it is "Electroless -Nickel/Teflon" ((maybe someone with more knowledge than I can jump in))) ,,,,,,

but I have been using it on the Lazzeroni rifles and our bullets since I started in 1995 and it DOES work ,,,,,,,

I'm still gonna hold you to that the fact that I am wanting to see test results for the 7.82 WB with some 210 VLD's and 215 & 230 Hybrids that have been NP3 coated. I think you might be surprised at the outcome.

The big heavy pills have come along way in the last 20 years. I know the 190's shoot great out of your rifles, but I really do think that by not trying the heavies that you will be selling the caliber short.

If I had a 7.82 WB, I would have already been testing with 210's, 215 Hybrids and 230 OTM's, just to see how well I could get them to shoot.

I know that I have developed a pet load for my .308 Win shooting the 210 Berger VLD's, and it is stacking them in 1 ragged cloverleaf (around ½ MOA) @ 100 yards. I have not had the chance to test them at any further distance yet. But I have a good feeling, since they are coming out of the barrel @ ~2,400 fps. And that's with a Obermeyer 5R 11.25" twist barrel, which should be too slow of a twist for that heavy of a bullet, but it's working perfectly for me.

You say your 7.82 WB's have a 10-twist, which would make them the perfect setup for pushing the 210-230gr pills and keeping them stabilized.

Just simply my thoughts on the matter. And I'm definitely not criticizing your method, as I know everyone has what works for them. I just think that the 7.82 WB could actually gain a little bit of LR performance from running the heavier bullets.

 

[sinarms]

I just wanted to say I am not taking any sides here just making a reply.

I noticed on your website John that all of your rifles except the light hunter offer a 1/10 twist barrel as an option as I assume that is to keep recoil down when shooting heavier bullets. I love shooting light weight bullets screaming fast but at distances I shoot the heavy bullets. I live in South Dakota and we have 3 days a year when the wind doesn't blow and when it does it goes from 5mph-40mph and the extra BC of a heavy Berger, Matrix, or Sierra bullet really does help. You can dope wind but there are those days when you have gusts that really throw everything off.

John I am all for what you are currently offering as most of your customers won't be shooting ELR or probably even 500-800yrds. I would love to see you up your rifle selection with a dedicated long range rifle with corresponding ammo. Something with a 30" heavy barrel, correct stock, matching scope, ammo with heavy bullets, etc. Just my opinion but I think that would be a nice addition.

 

[LazzInc]

mudrunner ,,,,,,,,

all Lazzeroni rifles chambered in the Warbird caliber have used 12 twist barrels until recently ,,,,,, customers have started asking for 10 twist, so I have had no problem switching,,,,,,,

Gary Schneider has pretty much perfected his 10 twist 5-groove polygon barrel now and my own new personal Lazz model 2012 that I shot out to 1,000 yards last weekend, has this barrel on it ,,,,, and it shoots very well ,,,,,,

I did try the heavier 210gr Bergers about 7 months ago out of another Warbird hunting rifle that I own and 300 yard accuracy was quite disappointing, once I got them over 3,000fps ,,,,,,,,

and I know from experience that NP3 alone applied to the bullet is not a magic wand, but will help make a good load even better ,,,,,

I certainly have a lot more work to do in this area ,,,, but my gut feeling is that for long range HUNTING, the 200gr Sierra SPBT Game King at around 3,250fps muzzle velocity, might just be a pretty hot ticket all the way to 1,000 yards ,,,,

also remember that when you NP3 a bullet it becomes very slick, and if there is no cannalure to crimp into when loading, when firing, the seating depth of the bullets in the mag box, can sometimes be altered under recoil ,,, and that is not good ,,,,,,

when loading the 168gr NP3 coated Sierra for instance, we tighten up the neck tension as much as we can, and then apply a bonding material around the bullet at the top of the neck, to reduce this tendency, but if the shape of the bullet has an odd taper, as some of the special VLDs do, then the increased neck tension and bonding material still does not stop the seating depth alterations under recoil ,,,,,,

 

[MudRunner2005]

I know we have my buddy's .300 WM shooting the 230 OTM's pretty hot, and it's stackin em in there pretty tight out of a factory 26" Rem SPS sporter barrel (which is probably what impressed me most). Don't know the exact speed as we haven't chrono'd that load. I need to get back to the range soon.

 

[IdahoRedneck]

Kirby and Mr Montana ,,,,,

1,000 yard BR accuracy IS relevant for hunting, whether you are lying in the dirt from a bi-pod, or shooting from the bench table using your 1,000+ yard rig ,,,,,,

in the early 2000s I set the (then) Tucson 1,000 yard range record for high score in the heavy gun class, 272 out of a possible 300, using Berger bullets ,,,, (((and I have NOT one bad thing to say about Berger bullets))) ,,,,,

but regardless of which case you guys overload, to achieve your bragging rights to 3,172 fps with the .308 dia, 230gr Berger bullet, I would guess that you do NOT achieve minute of angle or less accuracy at 1,000 yards,,,, might not even be less than 2 minutes of angle ,,,,, am I correct ? ,,,,,,, ((that bullet is just too long to drive that fast & still retain accuracy ,, IMO)))

and we can all ROLL around in the dirt shooting if you think it will help, but unless you CAN achieve minute of angle or less accuracy at 1,000 yards with your favorite hunting rifle/load combo, then all of the ballistics tables, showing wind drift advantages etc, all just evaporate with that same wind ,,,,,,,,,

1,000 yard bench rest shooters push the envelope for us all to see, and believe me when I tell you that if the 230gr Berger bullet, at 3,172 fps was more accurate and would buck the wind better than what those bench rest guys are currently using, they would be all over them ,,,,,

Lefty ,,,,,,,

I do not know who your brother in-law was emailing, but I always answer my email ((I personally answer on average of over 100 emails per day))) ,,,,,,

as for the cost of re-barreling the Big Lazz model 2000/2005 rifles ,,,,,, (((not the Sako TRG-S)) ,,,, it would run around $1,900.00 by the time I purchased the new Schneider barrel blank, Vais muzzle brake, paid for the machining to rebarrel/thread/set head-space and then re-metal finish the receiver & barrel assembly in NP3 ,,,,,

John you are wrong. Why is it you think so many of us are wanting you to test the heavier pills in your rifles. We have found somethin there. I would say all these guys pushing the 215 and 230 hybrids for hunting are **** sure shooting better than 2 moa and alot of em are around half to 1 moa.

You would know this if you read more threads here, other than chiming in on your own from time to time chanting your stuff is unequaled. JMO of course.

 

[LazzInc]

Idaho redneck ,,,,,,,

I have no doubt in my mind that the 210 & 230gr Bergers are FINE bullets capable of extreme accuracy ,,,,, I am just not sure yet that they are accurate when pushed real fast at Warbird velocities ,,,,,,,,

Like I said previously, I have already tried the 210s once with less than stellar results when I drove them at WARBIRD velocities ,,,,,,, but I am going to try them again along with the 230s in my own personal new rifle ,,,,,,,

and as I have also stated in the past, the overall market for a 230gr bullet in the Warbird rifles that I have built since 1995 is limited (including the SAKO TRG-S Warbird rifles)) ,,, those rifles all have 12 twist barrels and that is not going to work with 230gr bullets ,,,,,,

so there is my dilemma currently when servicing the thousands of Lazzeroni/Warbird rifles already out there, out of the 50,000 rounds or so of loaded Warbird ammo that I sell each year, how many rounds of that would be 230gr Bergers, even if I WAS able to get them to shoot out of my new 10 twist barrel ? ,,,, maybe 500 rounds to specialized shooters such as yourself ??

you can see where this is going right ? ,,,,,,,, but there is certainly NOTHING wrong with a shooter such as yourself having me or any other rifle builder, chamber you up a WARBIRD, with 10 twist barrel (or 9.5 twist)) and then you can load your own 230gr stuff from Lazzeroni brass & dies ? ,,,,,,

ALSO ,,, the only reason I have been coming off the handle on this thread, is that I grow very tired of having to debate this crap with Mr Montana and Kirby after they have spent the last 12+ years, running their mouths about how the Lazzeroni product is so inferior to the stuff they are pushing ,,,,,

I have listened to enough of their animosity, jealousy, BS and exaggerations to last me a lifetime ,,,,, not sure about the rest of you ,,,,

 

[MMERSS]

but my gut feeling is that for long range HUNTING, the 200gr Sierra SPBT Game King at around 3,250fps muzzle velocity, might just be a pretty hot ticket all the way to 1,000 yards ,,,,

John,

I'm interested in hearing your reasoning for this bullet if you could please. My interest here is only on you comments regarding this bullet. Thanks much and I appreciate your reply.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

edit, not worth my time....