MudRunner2005
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Why not lazzeroni rifles?
- Thread starter britz
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Dan ,,,,,,,
it is the same with the heavy bullets ,,,,,,, my gosh ,,,,,,,
take a look at this ballistics chart http://www.lazzeroni.com/ct_lacart.htm ,,,,,,,,,,
are you looking to purchase a Lazzeroni rifle or are you planning to overload the 300 RUM to try and match the Lazzeroni Warbird like some others on this board ? ,,,,,,,,
it is the same with the heavy bullets ,,,,,,, my gosh ,,,,,,,
take a look at this ballistics chart http://www.lazzeroni.com/ct_lacart.htm ,,,,,,,,,,
are you looking to purchase a Lazzeroni rifle or are you planning to overload the 300 RUM to try and match the Lazzeroni Warbird like some others on this board ? ,,,,,,,,
IdahoRedneck
Well-Known Member
I have looked at your rifles and they are nice guns, I am in the market just not right away.
I know you got the velocity, I looked at your chart but IMHO where its at now is bucking the wind, again JMHO. You gotta start pushin them heavier pills. Yeah youll lose some velocity but long range has come along way with technoligy..........As im sure you know.
My ultra is running just fine at a modest 3007 fps with the berger 210. There was another node at 3120 but just beat up on my brass to much. I dont care about velocity. Thanks for askin. No Im not tryin to match anybodys specs.
I want to buck the wind you get that with heavy high bc bullets
I know you got the velocity, I looked at your chart but IMHO where its at now is bucking the wind, again JMHO. You gotta start pushin them heavier pills. Yeah youll lose some velocity but long range has come along way with technoligy..........As im sure you know.
My ultra is running just fine at a modest 3007 fps with the berger 210. There was another node at 3120 but just beat up on my brass to much. I dont care about velocity. Thanks for askin. No Im not tryin to match anybodys specs.
I want to buck the wind you get that with heavy high bc bullets
IdahoRedneck
Well-Known Member
Double post........whoops
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IdahoRedneck
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, just lookin at your chart again your 190 vld in the warbird@ 3425 has 47.8 inches of drift at 1000 yards.
My lowley ole ultra with the 210 berger at 3007fps only drifts 42 inches at 1000.........my gosh.........
Stretch that out a little more and ya have, "newton" an object in motion will remain in motion, the heavier the better bulletwise..........
Again JMHO.
Im sure its possible I may be missing something here.........
My lowley ole ultra with the 210 berger at 3007fps only drifts 42 inches at 1000.........my gosh.........
Stretch that out a little more and ya have, "newton" an object in motion will remain in motion, the heavier the better bulletwise..........
Again JMHO.
Im sure its possible I may be missing something here.........
Idaho Redneck ,,,,,,,
I don't happen to be of the school that wind drift numbers are everything, although knowing what they are at long range is vitally important, as is trajectory ,,,,
I also don't like bullets that are too heavy for the caliber chosen ,,,, they tend to be inefficient for the caliber ,,,,,, and it becomes harder and harder to drive them fast and still maintain accuracy ,,,,,
even with all of the expertise on this board, there may be only a handful of shooters here that can go into the field with a hunting rifle that you can carry (without wheels attached) and place the FIRST shot out of a cold barrel into the chest cavity of a deer, at 1,000+ yards, 9 out of 10 times ,,,, in actual field conditions ,,,,,
but if windrift numbers are your game, and you want to also get to the 1,000 mark with enough energy to knock the hell out of an elk or moose sized animal ,,,, it is simple ,,,,,,
purchase a Lazz rifle in the 8.59 (.338) Titan or 9.53 (.375) Saturn caliber ,,,,,
for the Lazz Titan, seat a 250gr Sierra SPBT Gameking up against the barrel lands, pour in enough IMR-7828 to get it up to 3,100fps, Federal 215 primer ,,, pressure will be right at about 66,000PSI Maximum average lot mean ,,,, and this load will easily hold minute of angle 3 shot groups to 1,000 yards ,,,,,,,
for the Lazz Saturn, seat a 300gr Sierra SPBT Gameking up against the barrel lands, pour in enough reloader 19 to get it up to 3,000fps, Federal 215 primer ,,, pressure will be right at about 66,000PSI Maximum average lot mean ,,,, and this load will easily hold minute of angle 3 shot groups to 1,000 yards ,,,,,,,
either cartridge when loaded, will easily fit 3 down in the mag box of the Lazz rifle, and feed and cycle properly as needed ,,,,,,,,
so run the windrift and energy numbers on those ,,,, see what you get, and compare to anything else out there ,,,,,,,
the ONLY other piece of brass available in the market place today that will fit into a carryable bolt action hunting rifle, and run with the Lazzeroni, is the 378 WBY brass ,,,,, and the same performance can be achieved with it, "with" the correct chamber/throat design ,,,,,, (stock WBY chambers are NOT correct for this type of loading and shooting)))
these are undisputable facts and part of the Lazzeroni record ,,,,,
the RUM simply does NOT have enough case capacity to achieve the performance of the Lazzeroni's, regardless of who overloads it for bragging rights ,,,,,
I don't happen to be of the school that wind drift numbers are everything, although knowing what they are at long range is vitally important, as is trajectory ,,,,
I also don't like bullets that are too heavy for the caliber chosen ,,,, they tend to be inefficient for the caliber ,,,,,, and it becomes harder and harder to drive them fast and still maintain accuracy ,,,,,
even with all of the expertise on this board, there may be only a handful of shooters here that can go into the field with a hunting rifle that you can carry (without wheels attached) and place the FIRST shot out of a cold barrel into the chest cavity of a deer, at 1,000+ yards, 9 out of 10 times ,,,, in actual field conditions ,,,,,
but if windrift numbers are your game, and you want to also get to the 1,000 mark with enough energy to knock the hell out of an elk or moose sized animal ,,,, it is simple ,,,,,,
purchase a Lazz rifle in the 8.59 (.338) Titan or 9.53 (.375) Saturn caliber ,,,,,
for the Lazz Titan, seat a 250gr Sierra SPBT Gameking up against the barrel lands, pour in enough IMR-7828 to get it up to 3,100fps, Federal 215 primer ,,, pressure will be right at about 66,000PSI Maximum average lot mean ,,,, and this load will easily hold minute of angle 3 shot groups to 1,000 yards ,,,,,,,
for the Lazz Saturn, seat a 300gr Sierra SPBT Gameking up against the barrel lands, pour in enough reloader 19 to get it up to 3,000fps, Federal 215 primer ,,, pressure will be right at about 66,000PSI Maximum average lot mean ,,,, and this load will easily hold minute of angle 3 shot groups to 1,000 yards ,,,,,,,
either cartridge when loaded, will easily fit 3 down in the mag box of the Lazz rifle, and feed and cycle properly as needed ,,,,,,,,
so run the windrift and energy numbers on those ,,,, see what you get, and compare to anything else out there ,,,,,,,
the ONLY other piece of brass available in the market place today that will fit into a carryable bolt action hunting rifle, and run with the Lazzeroni, is the 378 WBY brass ,,,,, and the same performance can be achieved with it, "with" the correct chamber/throat design ,,,,,, (stock WBY chambers are NOT correct for this type of loading and shooting)))
these are undisputable facts and part of the Lazzeroni record ,,,,,
the RUM simply does NOT have enough case capacity to achieve the performance of the Lazzeroni's, regardless of who overloads it for bragging rights ,,,,,
just this morning, I took a brand new Lazz model 2012LTH-XTLR (((see Lazzeroni Rifles ))) in the 7.82 (.308) Warbird caliber, 10-twist Schneider polygon 5-groove barrel, 5-25X56 Schmidt & bender mounted to a 20MOA cant rail, SEEKINS 34mm aluminum rings, drop compensator graduated in cm clicks ,,,,,, and headed to the range ,,,,,,
eye-balled the bore sight with the bolt removed, got on center paper at 100y with two shots ,,,, swung to 300 yards, shot two 3-shot groups while zeroing on the bullseye (first group 1 3/4 ", second group 1 1/4")) then loosened the compensator and set it back down on 5-clicks up from 0 ,,,,,
then swung to 550 yards ,,,,, ((500 meter range just outside of Tucson)) ,,,, turned drop compensator 18 cm clicks up from zero, put two 3-shot groups on the target at 3 3/4" and 2 7/8 " ,,,,,, and zero'd my windage adjustment at 550Y ,,,,,
packed up and drove to the other side of the range to set up at 1,000 yards,,,,, turned drop compensator up 54 cm clicks from 0, first 3-shot group at 6 3/4", second group at 9 1/4", was holding 3/4 mil-dot into a moderate gusting wind from the side (((I don't like to dial wind)) for both groups, adjusting slightly the wind hold for each shot, as the wind increased and decreased by feel ,,,,,
I was using OFF THE SHELF factory loaded Lazzeroni ammo, 168gr Sierra HPBT, NP3 coated and poured with reloader 19 powder ,,, muzzle velocity of the 168gr factory loads in my 25" barrel, at about 3,522 fps @ 72 degrees ,,,,,
I DID cull each individual case by neck run-out prior to heading to the range (((less than .002" to the good pile, greater than .002" to the barrel fouler pile)) out of a factory loaded box of 20, I generally get 16-18 rounds in the LESS-than .002" GOOD pile ,,,,,,
eye-balled the bore sight with the bolt removed, got on center paper at 100y with two shots ,,,, swung to 300 yards, shot two 3-shot groups while zeroing on the bullseye (first group 1 3/4 ", second group 1 1/4")) then loosened the compensator and set it back down on 5-clicks up from 0 ,,,,,
then swung to 550 yards ,,,,, ((500 meter range just outside of Tucson)) ,,,, turned drop compensator 18 cm clicks up from zero, put two 3-shot groups on the target at 3 3/4" and 2 7/8 " ,,,,,, and zero'd my windage adjustment at 550Y ,,,,,
packed up and drove to the other side of the range to set up at 1,000 yards,,,,, turned drop compensator up 54 cm clicks from 0, first 3-shot group at 6 3/4", second group at 9 1/4", was holding 3/4 mil-dot into a moderate gusting wind from the side (((I don't like to dial wind)) for both groups, adjusting slightly the wind hold for each shot, as the wind increased and decreased by feel ,,,,,
I was using OFF THE SHELF factory loaded Lazzeroni ammo, 168gr Sierra HPBT, NP3 coated and poured with reloader 19 powder ,,, muzzle velocity of the 168gr factory loads in my 25" barrel, at about 3,522 fps @ 72 degrees ,,,,,
I DID cull each individual case by neck run-out prior to heading to the range (((less than .002" to the good pile, greater than .002" to the barrel fouler pile)) out of a factory loaded box of 20, I generally get 16-18 rounds in the LESS-than .002" GOOD pile ,,,,,,
IdahoRedneck
Well-Known Member
Hmm it would appear a couple posts have been deleted......
wonder why they didnt also remove my meaningless double post
wonder why they didnt also remove my meaningless double post
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
I still would be interested to see testing results with the 210 VLD's or 215 Hybrids in the 7.82 Warbird. I bet that would be nasty with that 1:10 twist.
They might be a little bit slower than the 190's, but with super-high BC's and that special coating you use on them, I bet they would be some hard-hitting long range monsters.
They might be a little bit slower than the 190's, but with super-high BC's and that special coating you use on them, I bet they would be some hard-hitting long range monsters.
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
John,
I find the above statement a little odd. How do you define or explain what would be " inefficient for the caliber"? What for instance would be "too heavy" for a 300 RUM or 7.82 Warbird and what would be an "ideal weight?
The way I see it when running the numbers on the ballistic calcs, the heavier high BC bullets, buck wind better and have longer "effective" ranges. The only advantage the faster lighter bullets have is flatter trajectory in short to mid ranges and IMO, that means little to nothing in the long range game. Another advantage the heavier bullets have is bringing more mass, penetration and destruction to game animals, especially at long ranges. This will increase the odds of a DRT and decrease the odds of an animal walking or trotting off somewhere. One last advantage is that heavier bullets are a little easier on barrel life. Lighter faster bullets tend to generate a little more heat and are a little harder on barrels.
Also, I doubt you can support the idea that heavier bullets are not as accurate as lighter bullets with quantifiable data. I have seen plenty of great short, mid and long range groups with heavy bullets out of the 300 RUM and 300 WM.
Here is a 1.1" group @ 300 yds from a 300 RUM pushing 230 Hybrids @ 3171 fps with RL33...
http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...ess-rl33-load-development-120353/index19.html
And here is a video of a 1175 yd drop/accuracy check of same rifle and load...
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/rl-33-first-blood-122542/index2.html
Being a 300 RUM owner, I agree 100% that it does not have the capacity the Warbird has and doesn't have the same performance potential as the Warbird. I disagree with your assessment of available quality brass. The 7.82 Warbird case is very interesting to me as a long range shooter, but that being said I would opt for a 30/338 LM Imp over the Warbird which would have the same capacity as the Warbird with superior brass and would fit into a standard long action magazine.
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MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
So, whatever John says is gospel and can't be challenged... interesting indeed.
Maybe you can help me out? Is there anything factually wrong with what I posted?
extreme ,,,,,,,,
appreciate the advice ,,,, I have had to put up with stuff like this for 18 years, so it is not new ,,,,,,,
us guys all have big egos, and they often cause us to run off at the mouth a little, with the exact "bragging rights" figures I was referring to ,,,,,,,
knowledgeable loaders and shooters such as yourself DO know the difference ,,,
appreciate the advice ,,,, I have had to put up with stuff like this for 18 years, so it is not new ,,,,,,,
us guys all have big egos, and they often cause us to run off at the mouth a little, with the exact "bragging rights" figures I was referring to ,,,,,,,
knowledgeable loaders and shooters such as yourself DO know the difference ,,,
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