I had a friend that took one of those hunts in texas a few years ago. They assured him that the animals were free ranging , so he decided to check it out. He wanted some kind of sheep, maybe an aldad . The guide set him in a spot , assured him that was a good stand for what he was after. A few minutes after the guide left, Chris noticed a thick tangle of brush going down the hillside about 30yds away. He grabbed his binos to get a better look.........it was a chain link shute they had camouflaged. He then studied the hill top and saw the corral his sheep was in, waiting to be let out. He climbed down, went up where the corral was, found somebody , and demanded a refund . They paid him his fees back and he hit the road . Some things people will pass off as hunting blow my mind !
Why Doesn't Berger make a Bonded Bullet??
- Thread starter Ingwe
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I'm not a huge fan of Berger performance on game, never the less I use them for accuracy in my long range rifle and have never lost anything I have shot with them. I have shot multiple elk through the shoulder at 5-700 yards with them and had excellent penetration with either an exit or a perfectly mushroomed bullet laying against the hide on the far side. At 200 and under they tend to fragment or grenade badly, I haven't shot an elk shoulder at close range with one, although I have killed two elk under fifty yards with them, both were shot through the ribs. I did put a finish shot in a whitetails neck at about 10 feet and while it broke the neck and finished it instantly it didn't penetrate past the first half of the neck bone and blew a fist sized divot with tiny fragments of copper and lead (non bigger than a pin head) being all that was left of the bullet.
They don't much knockdown on elk (although elk tend to stand up to most bullets well unless you hit a big bone) I have shot numerous elk through the vitals at range without them flinching. I even shot a 6x6 bull at 620 yards once who went right on feeding (stepped behind a tree where I didn't have a clear followup shot but could see through the branches) and when it stepped out I put another through his ribs, to find out the first shot took one lung, liver and guts (downhill quartering shot) and would have killed him within minutes most likely. I have only had two elk I shot only once with a berger, all others had multiple bullets in them, not because the first shot wouldn't have killed them, but because they were still standing and elk are a tough animal, I am going to continue to punch holes in them until they are down, until you walk up to it you can never be 100% sure that first shot is a kill shot and nothing went wrong.
They kill quite well, but I just don't trust a fragmenting bullet and would rather have a bonded bullet I trust to go through heavy bone at close range, because sometimes you are going to walk up on an elk in the timber where I hunt, even if you are planning on shooting across the canyon. If I know I am going to be hunting the timber I pack a different gun that is handier in the timber and it is loaded with a different bullet, Grand Slams being my favorite but I've used all sorts of bullets at times as long as they are designed for penetration and holding together. Absolute worst I've seen for performance on elk at close range are SST's.
They don't much knockdown on elk (although elk tend to stand up to most bullets well unless you hit a big bone) I have shot numerous elk through the vitals at range without them flinching. I even shot a 6x6 bull at 620 yards once who went right on feeding (stepped behind a tree where I didn't have a clear followup shot but could see through the branches) and when it stepped out I put another through his ribs, to find out the first shot took one lung, liver and guts (downhill quartering shot) and would have killed him within minutes most likely. I have only had two elk I shot only once with a berger, all others had multiple bullets in them, not because the first shot wouldn't have killed them, but because they were still standing and elk are a tough animal, I am going to continue to punch holes in them until they are down, until you walk up to it you can never be 100% sure that first shot is a kill shot and nothing went wrong.
They kill quite well, but I just don't trust a fragmenting bullet and would rather have a bonded bullet I trust to go through heavy bone at close range, because sometimes you are going to walk up on an elk in the timber where I hunt, even if you are planning on shooting across the canyon. If I know I am going to be hunting the timber I pack a different gun that is handier in the timber and it is loaded with a different bullet, Grand Slams being my favorite but I've used all sorts of bullets at times as long as they are designed for penetration and holding together. Absolute worst I've seen for performance on elk at close range are SST's.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
No place did I say it was anything more than basically a demonstration of whats going on same as the water tower Barnes uses at point blank range to catch bullets, they however turn those into marketing!!OK....I can't resist! Shooting water jugs is totally irrelevant to shooting animals, of approximately 60 to 65% water composition.....a yet we can now talk of penetration of steel plate! This is venturing into the "Twilight Zone" territory! Unless the animal has had shoulder replacement surgery!memtb
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Barnes 165 and 168 TSX and TTSX in the 30 cals, 06, 300 WSM and 300 WBY, which are far and away the most popular weights, at this time ALL I loaded were Barnes, I wouldn't even hunt with someone who loaded anything else and I recommended them in my business and even discounted the cutting costs on animals shot with Barnes.
Ranges from 150 ish to 450 yards, this was before I got into long range so this is typical elk range around here and I was helping get guys through to kill as many cow elk as possible of pivot fields so we we're seeing 2-3 elk a day being shot and many I would have a guy shoot my gun so lots of data points fast. I've dug a LOT of bullets out of elk and examined a lot of wound channels. Did this two years and that was all I could take and I was either going to find something new or quit hunting, that's when bullet testing started and I started looking at precision hunting and shot Bergers as my second bullet after accubonds after shooting them into piles of different media and bullet catching rigs, I did that for a couple years then just dropped the Accubond since it had zero advantages and bloodshot more meat. At this time there were several of us doing this kind of testing and all of us were looking for something better, the old threads that Broz had are still coming up, I remember our first run with the 215 in Wyoming and he started racking up goats and it was mind boggling how effective they were and it goes on from there.
Bigngreen, that's a serious number of elk you've shot and examined. Certainly cannot discredit that type of real world data. I have shot a lot more elk than most but no were near your numbers. Unfortunately I just have not had the same success as you with Bergers. I wish I did have that type of success because they're so darn accurate and I could stop doing my own experimentation.
very interesting how so many of us have had such different results with all bullets. Keeps me thinking what the variables could be to drive such different results.
Shot 3 elk this year with the Barnes 175 LRX at close range. 3250 muzzle velocity. All dead elk but that bullet is highly explosive up close... one completely exploded a front shoulder. Bullet only caught about the rear 1.5 inches of muscle, no bone, and the meat was a disaster.
the search continues for me...
very interesting how so many of us have had such different results with all bullets. Keeps me thinking what the variables could be to drive such different results.
Shot 3 elk this year with the Barnes 175 LRX at close range. 3250 muzzle velocity. All dead elk but that bullet is highly explosive up close... one completely exploded a front shoulder. Bullet only caught about the rear 1.5 inches of muscle, no bone, and the meat was a disaster.
the search continues for me...
I dont mean this to sound argumentative , but isn't effectively dispatched game the goal when we shoot an animal with one of these long range cannons ? My point is, damage is imperative if the goal is taking the animal out quickly. No one wants to waste meat , but if given the option of a slower death vs more wasted meat , I will take the loss on a little bit of meat to make the animals lights go out quickly . If you dont want to waste meat, hunt with a bow, or buy a cow. If you hunt with a cannon , expect tissue destruction. That way if the bullet gods see fit to guide your next bullet between ribs , kill cleanly, and not waste more than a couple ounces of tasty meat, it will be a pleasant surprise.
Agree with your comment. I think we are all being nit-picky in an attempt to achieve "perfect" bullet performance, which is different for all of us.
In the case of the elk I shot this year, I would prefer to have more energy transferred to the inside of the animal and less to the shoulder.
The bullet had violently expanded inside the shoulder (my guess is the petals ripped off inside the shoulder) and only did minimal tissue damage to the lungs. Luckily the bullet perfectly center punched the arteries connecting the heart to the lungs, but it appeared that only the bullet shank was traveling through the chest cavity with minimal cross section.
At least in my opinion that is not optimal bullet performance.
The bull that my wife shot (same rifle/ammo) was recovered in the hide on the far side, and did not have any petals attached.
I would guess the LRX would actually perform very well at extended ranges (which the bullet was designed for).
I will say that I have never had a Berger explode within the first couple of inches. The elk I've killed when the Bergers performed correctly were devastating to the internal organs. My issues with Bergers have been lack of expansion.
Overkill338
Well-Known Member
T
Tlr155
Guest
When does "Hunting" become "Shooting" or even a stunt?[/QUOTE]
When guys, start pushing 800-1500 yrd, shots
it's, no longer hunting its just shooting the art of HUNTING has been lost anyone can learn to SHOOT big game not everyone can actually HUNT big game there is,a diffrence
When guys, start pushing 800-1500 yrd, shots
it's, no longer hunting its just shooting the art of HUNTING has been lost anyone can learn to SHOOT big game not everyone can actually HUNT big game there is,a diffrence
It's my favorite when comments like this roll in from a troll. So productive and informative for the LRH community.
Well, it was a high fence pasture that was 1.5 miles on two sides by 1 mile on the other two sides. All the animals have been raised and bred in that pasture. No game brought in just for us. The two Oryx cows and Red Deer hinds were between 9 and 10 years old. This was a management hunt. First ever on a high fence, all on the up and up.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
It's always a new guy who needs to show everyone how to hunt, why log into a forum that is ALL about what you don't intend to understand or participate in, just odd!!
Overkill338
Well-Known Member
I joined this forum to LEARN from guys wiser than me. I read and take it all in. If you don't like hunting from long range, why join a site that says LONG RANGE HUNTING in the web address?
