Why Doesn't Berger make a Bonded Bullet??

[longtubeman]

So there in the same class as creedmoors ?

 

[animalpest]

Comparing a 180 gr bullet on the shoulder to a 230 gr bullet of a different make is not a fair comparison. The 180 gr is only 78% mass of the 230.

 

[James Bailey]

As someone who actually shoots animal with Berger bullets I have yet to see this "exploding" bullet!

 

[James Bailey]

Me Too BignGreen! What I find are lots of very dead animals laying in the same place they were standing when I shot them. Just aim at the kill zone, and squeeze the trigger

 

[James Bailey]

Problem for Berger is that they make target bullets that some long range hunters like for shooting game. I doubt they sell a very large percentage to hunters. They already have bullets that those hunters like, so inventing a new bullet and marketing it to a new group would be risky from a business standpoint. Nosler, Swift, and Barnes have always marketed to this group of hunters. How much of their business could Berger take? If I was running the company I don't think I would seriously consider it.

I have to disagree. I rarely ever shoot at anything over 500 yards. I shoot the EOLS because they're crazy accurate, as easy as anything else to develop a load for, and they kill everything I shoot with them. Now if I were going moose or bear hunting, I'd probably sling a TSX or Partition but the fable that Berger bullets won' t kill up close and are only ok for long range is just that, a fable. I've killed 4 deer(1 axis, 3 whitetail God I love being a Texan and MLD tags!) so far this season with 140 EOLs and a 26 Nosler 3360 fps all under 200 yards and has pass throughs on every one. I would never shoot anything up close with them unless you're prepared to drag it and load it. Not being argumentative, that's just the truth

 

[Overkill338]

Call Gunwerks and talk to Arron about it
Way back when John Burns was with Arron they had to beg Walt to come see how his bullets worked on game. Walt was on TV and was saying he thought it was a bad idea. Then they had piles of data to show him.
Eld-x are not all they cracked up to be.
( Saying in general)
It's funny to me in this darn age cell phones, laptops, iPads, tablets and computers and people still don't know the facts of things.

I say shoot Nosler shoot Sierra and Hornady shoot whatever makes you happy That means there'll be more Berger bullets for me.
To be honest I would like to have a Berger bullet fail,That way I can see what others are talking about I'll have two or three more in my gun waiting to make sure the animal falls

I was just being funny. I actually started to try the Classic Hunter this season. I talked to Berger a lot about it. They told me for the small deer and black bear here in Virginia that the 168 would be perfect in my 300 WM. Told me to use the 185 if I was going over 400 yards. I asked what if I have a 50 yard shot, they sent me this video . Whoever it was that said they wanted to see the "exploding" bullets, watch this video. He plainly says Bergers are meant to shed 90% of its mass through fragmentation.

 

[5.56×250]

Be sure to leave milk and cookies for Santa! And, I heard that, he's using Unicorns to pull the sleigh this year! memtb

Yea, I heard about the unicorns........word is, all santas reindeer were dropped with Berger bullets during the north pole reindeer season this year.

 

[cajun]

It's about physics, if a bullet has a large frontal diameter it needs more mass behind it to keep the ability to penetrate, if another bullet is able to loose the frontal diameter AND has mass to spare it will out penetrate an on side hit then continue to mushroom and cause damage continuing on.
I've watched several elk take a 180 accubond dead center of the shoulder with a 300 and the bullet mushroomed big and early and blew down to the point it did not have the momentum to get through, I've watch a lot of 230 and 215 Berger's on the same shot and have yet to see one not get into the vital.
The Hammer bullet is a mono that works by design for penetration by getting ride of the frontal area and getting small and blunt and then retains it's momentum, Barnes are not designed to function like this.
You also have the mechanism of opening, OTM bullet open by hydraulic forcing the tip open of of then expansion can start so that's where the normal few inches of penetration comes when things are normal vs a Accubond that is opening and loosing momentum the second it hits hide then has to plow through muscle and bone.

I totally get that a bullet that is mushrooming on impact is going to penetrate less potentially because of the larger diameter creating more resistance. What I don't get is how you can hide from the fact of jacket construction. I've killed critters with Accubonds and have never seen one blow up. Ballistic tips are another matter. But since Nosler changed the jackets on those years ago not so much either. I'm not saying that Bergers are bad bullets. I'm just saying there is no free lunch. If a bullet is structurally designed to open at low velocity I don't see how it can hold up to a high velocity shoulder impact.

 

[Stevenstl86]

How do the 308 168 Berger hybrid hunters perform on deer 25-200 yards?

 

[memtb]

Gotta love the fan boys who won't even test and try to understand the how and why something works.
I have shelves full of Barnes, Berger, Hornady, Matrix, Hammer some Swifts just to name some and then I have boxes of hand made custom bullets designs, I'm not afraid of loading and shooting bullet to figure something out, I'm really just interested in terminal performance and what ever I shoot that give me that works, it could be Barnes, Hammer, Berger or something else, maybe these new Atips will up the playing field, don't know!!

I cannot argue your point. I've been shooting game and handloading for 53 or 54 years. I did a lot of experimenting when younger. As stated before, I had some disappointments and some utter failures. In 1993,I found a bullet that performed to my expectations/requirements and cannot see any reason for change. Though, have briefly considered, trying the Hammer Bullets!

My desires of a bullet performance varies greatly from many of the shooters here. I will not shoot a big game animal at long distances.....greater than 600 yards. And, consequently, do not need a bullet that will expand at very long distances with it's diminished velocity. I will however, shoot an occasionally do, take very close shots on animals at close range (occasionally under 25 yards). I've experienced thin jacketed, high BC bullets fail at close range.....causing me to loose my first elk. Loosing that elk, was something I'll not get over. So, I want a bullet that will perform, virtually every time at near point blank range and at extreme angles.

Not that this plays into the equation, as I was using mono bullets prior to changing hunt locations.....but, I now hunt in an area of high grizzly concentrations. IF, and a very low probability, I have an encounter.....I want a bullet that "will" give complete penetration at "point blank" distances!

While I have picked on you a bit, I do have one serious question. You mentioned having penetration failures with a .30 caliber magnum rifle. What weight bullet were you using and at what approximate range!

Thanks, I will now return you to your "regular scheduled programming"! I hope that you continue to have nothing but success with your chosen bullets....what ever they may be! memtb

 

[Deleted member 107796]

I have not personally shot an Elk with a Berger, and never will. I was along on a Grizzly hunt where 4 heavy for caliber Bergers failed to anchor a medium size bear. He was finally put down for the count with a 220 grain A-Frame from an 8mm Rem Mag. I have that bullet in my collection. Not one piece of those Bergers was much bigger than a pinhead. The Swift still weighs 172 grains. Dave.

I use Bergers on elk successfully. I would never use anything other than a NP, Swift AF, or maybe a few other like Woodleigh, on a brownie.

 

[del2les]

Nothing like gong straight to the source to remove all speculation, so I have placed an email to Berger with this very question and if they have any plans for the future. Informed they would give me a formal answer shortly.

Well, I finally heard back from Phillip Hohman of Capstone Precision Group owners of Berger Bullets, and per him, there are no plans to ever produce a "bonded" Berger for hunting. It is his opinion their bullets perform just fine as produced, and they see no reason to introduce a different process to their line.

I wrote a response back asking if they would consider a bonded design if enough hunters requested one in specific calibers, so we will see what he responds.

 

[bigngreen]

I totally get that a bullet that is mushrooming on impact is going to penetrate less potentially because of the larger diameter creating more resistance. What I don't get is how you can hide from the fact of jacket construction. I've killed critters with Accubonds and have never seen one blow up. Ballistic tips are another matter. But since Nosler changed the jackets on those years ago not so much either. I'm not saying that Bergers are bad bullets. I'm just saying there is no free lunch. If a bullet is structurally designed to open at low velocity I don't see how it can hold up to a high velocity shoulder impact.

First we are still talking metals, lead and copper even at soft will resist movement, and hey will definitely yield but in doing so they are removing bone and tissue with that and reducing resistance by loosing frontal area, this only works with enough bullet that you can spare some and I'm talking about getting through the initial hit on the impact side I'm not talking total penetration but the ability to get past that heavy shoulder hit. Naturally if we do something to stress the jacket and reduce the integrity more that's another subject and one we can control.
I'll get a chance to find a picture that will show this, I have a steel plate with a mono bullet stuck half way through it with clean bullet holes through it from Berger and matrix bullet, while that is steel the same thing is happening on bone.
Don't forget that the front of a Berger has more integrity that a tipped bullet, they are a FMJ till they pressure up and the nose opens hydraulically, to get them to open mechanically takes a LOT compared to a tipped bullet.

 

[memtb]

OK....I can't resist! Shooting water jugs is totally irrelevant to shooting animals, of approximately 60 to 65% water composition.....a yet we can now talk of penetration of steel plate! This is venturing into the "Twilight Zone" territory! Unless the animal has had shoulder replacement surgery! memtb