Why dial a rifle bore within .0001"
- Thread starter Canadian Bushman
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Canadian Bushman
Well-Known Member
rpierce
Official LRH Sponsor
I had a lilja barrel that was .0015 tighter than their advertised spec. After talking to Dan about it I won't order a barrel from them or use a customer supplied one.
Ryan Pierce
Piercision Rifles
Ryan Pierce
Piercision Rifles
Canadian Bushman
Well-Known Member
Ryan,
.0015 is a significant problem. Thats unfortunate dan wouldnt make things right.
Youve cut many of winning barrels. Would you share your thoughts on the significance of dialing a rifle bore in to the tenth?
rpierce
Official LRH Sponsor
I figure a Smith should do everything he can to make his products as perfect as possible. It's the small things that add up to make a big difference. Tight thread fit, true action, concentric chamber, perfect bedding job and a good barrel. I've seen multiple bedding jobs from a "famous" smith that charges 275 dollars to bed and there was voids everywhere in each one. Totally unacceptable in my opinion when charging that much. Just my thoughts on the whole build process.
PPR
Well-Known Member
Lilja never has nor ever will stand behind their product. Don't waste your time or hard earned
money. They have never made a bad barrel so there is no need to warranty anything. To many good barrel makers out there to put up with this nonsense.
Regards, Paul
money. They have never made a bad barrel so there is no need to warranty anything. To many good barrel makers out there to put up with this nonsense.
Regards, Paul
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Everyone has there favorite barrel maker and I have mine. The reason that I prefer one over the other is =
Consistency from barrel to barrel, quality (How well they stay within advertised tolerances), brake in ability and foremost there consistent accuracy.
The original poster ask "why dial a rifle bore in within .0001". somewhere this question was lost in a debate as to weather a person could even do it or that barrels were not manufactured close enough to even try.
My Opinion is, ''You must try'' because how else are you going to know what quality you are getting
from your barrel maker unless you test it before you proceed with the build.
There are many ways to do this testing and the way is not as important as the results. just because someone said it on the internet doesn't mean it is true. the only way is to prove it is with testing.
There was also some discussion about out of round or improper size bores. there is a very simple way to find out if you have this situation with reamer pilots. When I buy a piloted reamer, I like to get the standard pilot(For a .338 the pilot diameter is .3292) the next size larger (Tighter) is normally .3294 and the size smaller is .3290. and if you purchase these also, you can test the bore
size with these three bushings. If the bore is larger or smaller than these bushings I personally elect not to use the barrel and send it back. If I have to send a barrel back, the barrel maker is given one more chance to MEET HIS SPEC. and if he doesn't I just don't use any more of his barrels. I re barrel for my self and a few friends and don't have to except marginal quality.
So my limit is = +or - .0004 on roundness and bore diameter and .001 max on bore straightness.
NOTE: this has nothing to do with contour alignment with the bore. That is a different test and requirement for me. Other people have different levels of acceptance, (Some less and some more) and as long as they are happy with what they find, all is good.
So again, "YOU GET WHAT YOU INSPECT. NOT WHAT YOU EXPECT"
J E CUSTOM
rpierce
Official LRH Sponsor
.0015 tighter than advertised isn't consistency in my opinion. And then for the owner of Lilja to give me a bs excuse/lie as to why is even worse. I use brux almost exclusively because every one has given 1" groups at 600 yds in the rifles Ive built. And 90% of what I build is hunting rifles. I don't break in Brux barrels. They clean up extremely quickly. I will put 50 rounds or more through a brand new barrel before I clean it. They come spotless in 10 patches or less. Also their customer service is second to none. If your not happy with it return it and get a new one for free. Im not bashing you JE. But for a company, Lilja, to give you good barrels and then let other people have crap barrels doesn't give me very much confidence in that company.
liljamt
Member
I have been keeping a tab on this thread for awhile now. I try not to get involved on these sites, but I thought it might be beneficial to make a comment on this one. While I am certain my father hasn't handled every situation perfectly, I do believe he has had some of the best costumer service in this industry. I don't doubt that you had a tight barrel, I don't think it is a large secret that we were having some issues with our sizing for a couple months. We had switched a certain way we where lapping our barrels, and it took a little longer than anticipated to iron out the new process. In hindsight, we should have handled that whole situation differently, but we got it worked out and the new process is working better than before.
Ryan, like I said before, I don't doubt you had a tight barrel. What I do have a hard time wrapping my head around is that my dad was unwilling to work with you on that. I can't speak for him I guess, but I know I will always replace a barrel that leaves our shop that should not have. I will always stand behind my product. Satisfied customers turn into repeat customers. Possibly dad has gotten away from that in the last couple years, but that is not how I plan to run this business.
Like I said earlier, I try not to get involved in these online forums, so I won't be commenting much again. I do however encourage anyone that has any more questions, to give me a call, or shoot me an email. I don't pretend to know everything,
I am sure that most of the people in this thread know more about gunsmithing than I do. But, I do know barrels, and I know that I will always strive to make the best barrel possible.
Carson Lilja
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
First, I am sorry you have had problems (With any barrel maker) because I know how it feels
when I have to return anything or don't get the proper customer service But, I have had many barrel makers try to BS me and I simply stop using them. I will never mention how bad the barrels were or how lousy the service was with any barrel maker because it serves no purpose. Others may have had good luck with them so my opinion will probably not change there minds. (I don't want to anyway)
One bad barrel does not make a bad barrel maker, but continuous bad barrels and poor service does. and they only have one chance with me to make it good or they never hear from me again.
As far as I am concerned,Dan Lilja does not need any defending by me (As well as some other barrel makers), But I have nothing but respect for Dan, his service and especially his product. he has treated me very well and has never failed to send me a great barrel. I treat people the way I want to be treated and have good relations with more than one barrel maker. I also have a list of barrel makers that I wont use, but see no reason to slam them just because I had bad luck with them, I just wont use them.
I would however like to get barrels that would consistently shoot 1" groups at 600 yards every time. (Quote).
Craftsmanship, and the quality it means, is a culture of its own. Often real craftsmanship is sacrificed at the alter of Expediency.
The end.
J E CUSTOM
You Sir is a mighty fine gentleman; I've always enjoyed your posts/responses and one of the reasons you're one of the few here that I look up to with the utmost respect.
The "Golden Rule" rocks!
Cheers!
Ed
Canadian Bushman
Well-Known Member
You Sir is a mighty fine gentleman; I've always enjoyed your posts/responses and one of the reasons you're one of the few here that I look up to with the utmost respect.
The "Golden Rule" rocks!
Cheers!
Ed
+1.
rpierce
Official LRH Sponsor
Quote "One bad barrel does not make a bad barrel maker, but continuous bad barrels and poor service does. and they only have one chance with me to make it good or they never hear from me again." I have had one barrel from them. They didn't make it right. Hence why I don't use them.
Out of 143 shooters surveyed at the fclass nationals for mid and long range here is the number of barrels used by maker. Brux 37, Bartlein 54, Krieger 39, Broughton 5, Benchmark 2, Criterion 1, Maddco 3, Savage 1, Hawk Hill 1. Not one used by the maker I had a problem with. I have had/seen issues with a barrel from every manufacturer out there except Brux and I use them for 90% of what goes in my lathe. Brux is a smaller quantity operation compared to Bartlein and Krieger. Krieger makes as many barrels in one month as Brux does all year.
Look at the statistics for the PRS series and you will see 1 out of a 100 shooters for the company I had a problem with. So 1 out of 243 shooters surveyed had a lilja. That's pretty low odds, one could say a trend.
When a guy asks me how well I can make a rifle shoot I tell him everyone will shoot a 1" group at 600 yds. This is because everyone has that had a brux on it. Ive yet to have one not. I get texts and emails all the time with customers sending me pics of amazing groups with their hunting and competition rifles. Some of them are in the .0s moa wise, hunting rifles included.
I rarely post on forums as I am a one man shop and am backlogged with work. I do this for a living so if that machine is not on I am not making money. I also know that if my work isnt perfect I wouldn't have a majority of my customers using me and also setting records and wins with. Ive lost track of the number of national records and wins customers and I have achieved. I enjoy your posts JE and am not putting you down in any way. Just conveying my experiences. Everybody have a Merry Christmas.
Ryan Pierce
www.piercisionrifles.com
Out of 143 shooters surveyed at the fclass nationals for mid and long range here is the number of barrels used by maker. Brux 37, Bartlein 54, Krieger 39, Broughton 5, Benchmark 2, Criterion 1, Maddco 3, Savage 1, Hawk Hill 1. Not one used by the maker I had a problem with. I have had/seen issues with a barrel from every manufacturer out there except Brux and I use them for 90% of what goes in my lathe. Brux is a smaller quantity operation compared to Bartlein and Krieger. Krieger makes as many barrels in one month as Brux does all year.
Look at the statistics for the PRS series and you will see 1 out of a 100 shooters for the company I had a problem with. So 1 out of 243 shooters surveyed had a lilja. That's pretty low odds, one could say a trend.
When a guy asks me how well I can make a rifle shoot I tell him everyone will shoot a 1" group at 600 yds. This is because everyone has that had a brux on it. Ive yet to have one not. I get texts and emails all the time with customers sending me pics of amazing groups with their hunting and competition rifles. Some of them are in the .0s moa wise, hunting rifles included.
I rarely post on forums as I am a one man shop and am backlogged with work. I do this for a living so if that machine is not on I am not making money. I also know that if my work isnt perfect I wouldn't have a majority of my customers using me and also setting records and wins with. Ive lost track of the number of national records and wins customers and I have achieved. I enjoy your posts JE and am not putting you down in any way. Just conveying my experiences. Everybody have a Merry Christmas.
Ryan Pierce
www.piercisionrifles.com
