Which weapon/caliber should i go with?

[Yoshie]

oh. ok i understand. he said that the wyatts mag box isnt made for a vanguard yet. so perhaps i should stay with the 300 wby?

 

[trebark]

oh. ok i understand. he said that the wyatts mag box isnt made for a vanguard yet. so perhaps i should stay with the 300 wby?

If you go with the Wby, your rifle remains a repeater. If you go RUM, it's single-shot. That's a choice that is up to you. For my style of hunting and shooting, single-shot works for me.

Where do I send my invoice for consulting?

 

[Yoshie]

let me know if you have a computer problem and ill help yah

worse case for me is that the weatherby seated to the lands with my 185 VLD wouldnt fit in the magazine anyway and id be forced to single load the weatherby too... so who knows lol ill have to think about it.. id think missing a deer from 800 yards either they dont get scared and i get another shot.. or they get scared and dont get the shot... i guess i dont need a repeater.

and of course i would only take ethical shots that i know i could take so the second shot shouldn't be needed.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Yoshie, I am currently having a Vanguard/Howa built to my specs. It will have the B&C Medalist Stock and barrreld with a 26" Broughton 5C 10" twist, med varmint contour (.750 @ the muzzle) I am cambering it in 300 Dakota because that is the largest case the action will hold in the magazine with the bullets I'm using, The bullets are GS 177's and they have a 1" long nose. The Dakota case is a good candidate for RL17, especially with the GS bullets which are a drive band, bore riding type of monometal bullet. With this combination, I'm expecting to see 3400 fps plus. I currently get 3190 fps with 180 E-Tips in front of RL17 in a 24" 300 WSM. If I do get 3400 fps with e 177's, it will give me an effective range of over 1300 yards based on their advertised BC.

I also have a Sendero 300 RUM and it's a great shooter. I'm pushing 180 E-Tips 3400 fps in it which gives me a 1K plus effective range. In order to seat the E-Tips just off the lans, the COAL is too long to fit in the mag box. Just something to think about when your figuring out what you want to do. You can get extended mag boxes and short throat your chamber to help make things fit. But those mods cost something.

If you want to use the Vanguard action as a repeater and keep costs down you might consider the 300 WSM which should get you to 900 depending on elevation and what load you come up with. The Dakota will get you a little farther but brass and is more costly. Hornady is making me some custom match grade dies for $190 which is about a good a price on good match grade dies as you're going to get in any clambering.

IMO, the Vanguard/Howa action is a little better than the Rem 700 but not all smiths work on them because of metric threads.

Hope that helps and welcome to LRH

-Mark

 

[MontanaRifleman]

oh. ok i understand. he said that the wyatts mag box isnt made for a vanguard yet. so perhaps i should stay with the 300 wby?

If my memrory serves me well, my smith said I could get a Wyatts extended box for the Vanguard.

Another option I considered was necking down a 338 RUM to .308 with a 35* shoulder. The 338 RUMis about .900 shorter than the 300 RUM and will buy you a little space. But my GS bullets are too long, so I'm going the 300 Dakota route.

The Vanguard mag box is 3.58" long. So you need to take the case length and subtract from that and that gives you your allowable bullet length.

 

[Yoshie]

oh, i see. May i ask why you chose a 1:10 twist? shouldn't a 1:11 or 1:12 be sufficient to stabilize the 177gr bullet?

seems how im new to long range hunting... how important is a repeater? if i plan to make max 800 - 900 yard shots, theres no way i could shoot one on the move. so i should have time in between shots to reload. I do recall a few episodes of best of the west where they did a quick follow up shot on a few animals that just stood there after clearly being hit.

I had been thinking about a 300 RUM due to the extra energy and flatter trajectory i would get (that would help unexpected variables like updrafts in canyons etc.).

ill check around for a wyatts box!

 

[rscott5028]

BC is a big factor in LRH.

Your highest BC bullets will be the longer/heavier bullets requiring a faster twist.

Under-stabilization is a bigger problem than over-stabilizing.

So, you should usually figure your twist for LRH based on the longest/heaviest bullet you plan to shoot.

-- richard

 

[trebark]

oh, i see. May i ask why you chose a 1:10 twist? shouldn't a 1:11 or 1:12 be sufficient to stabilize the 177gr bullet?

seems how im new to long range hunting... how important is a repeater? if i plan to make max 800 - 900 yard shots, theres no way i could shoot one on the move. so i should have time in between shots to reload. I do recall a few episodes of best of the west where they did a quick follow up shot on a few animals that just stood there after clearly being hit.

I had been thinking about a 300 RUM due to the extra energy and flatter trajectory i would get (that would help unexpected variables like updrafts in canyons etc.).

ill check around for a wyatts box!

I chose 1:10 because I might shoot the 240grain Sierra Match King (Sierra actually recommends 1:9, but the conventional wisdom says 1:10 will do).

If don't intend to shoot the 240 and the heaviest bullet you will shoot is the 210VLD, then you should use 1:11 (recommended by Berger). 1:11 will not hurt your ability to shoot the lighter bullets, although why would you? as the heavier bullets have much better BC.

For longrange hunting, I do not feel handicapped at all with a single-shot. I simply make sure to have a few extra rounds right next to the gun. So the first shot goes and I can quickly load a second. If push comes to shove, I can send a second round in about 2 seconds.

 

[Yoshie]

I see! i didnt find any extended box magazines to fit the vanguard. I think i will just go with a single shot 300 ultra mag.
I had planned on using the 210 bergers and 185 bergers.
i had interresting results with the ballistic calculator with these two bullets:
26" barrel, best average velocities i could find, 200 yard zero, 1.5 sight height, same conditions -|- 10mph wind
210 berger @ 3025FPS, .631 BC:
muzzle energy(ft/lb): 4267
1000 yard muzzle velocity(fps):1709
1000 yard come-up (moa): 22.4
1000 yard drift (moa): 5.54
1000 yard energy(ft/lb): 1362
185 berger @ 3314FPS, .549 BC:
muzzle energy: 4511
1000 yard muzzle velocity(fps): 1743
1000 yard come-up (moa): 19.7
1000 yard drift (moa): 5.82
1000 yard energy(ft/lb):1248

are my average velocities screwed up? to me it seems like the 185 would be the best choice. granted i know that i might end up with an accuracy node slower for the 185 and faster for the 210... then that would change my thoughts.. but for a generalization, it seems like the two bullets are nearly the same except for the 185 shooting significantly flatter.

now 1000+ yards is a different story, but i dont plan to shoot that far!

 

[Yoshie]

just ran the ballistics for the 240 SMK:

240 Matchking @ 2900FPS, .771BC:
muzzle energy: 4482
1000 yard muzzle velocity(fps): 1820
1000 yard come-up (moa): 22.4
1000 yard drift (moa): 4.57
1000 yard energy(ft/lb):1765

thats better than the 210 berger... though granted it may not be the best hunting bullet.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

oh, i see. May i ask why you chose a 1:10 twist? shouldn't a 1:11 or 1:12 be sufficient to stabilize the 177gr bullet?

seems how im new to long range hunting... how important is a repeater? if i plan to make max 800 - 900 yard shots, theres no way i could shoot one on the move. so i should have time in between shots to reload. I do recall a few episodes of best of the west where they did a quick follow up shot on a few animals that just stood there after clearly being hit.

I had been thinking about a 300 RUM due to the extra energy and flatter trajectory i would get (that would help unexpected variables like updrafts in canyons etc.).

ill check around for a wyatts box!

It's the length of the bullet that determines the twist rate required to stabilize it. The GS bullets are monometal and this particular bullet is quite lond to give it the best possible BC. A 10 twist is on the edge for it and requires higher velocities to increase the RPMs.

It's your call on how important a repeater is to you. In my experience, a repeater has only come in handy once, but I like to have a back up shot just in case. I dropped a second antelope with the secoind shot once. If you hit an animal and it starts to take off on you, it's nice to have a quick backup.

I have a 300 RUM also and they're a good LR gun, depending on what bullet, load and elevation, it's probably good from 1000-1200 yds. The 300 RUM will be a very tight fit in a Vangurad action and will probably require short throating the chamber for long high BC bullets.

 

[rscott5028]

I am not a fan of single shot break open actions because you cannot maintain cheek weld and shooting position for a follow up.

However, you can do so using a single shot bolt rifle with practice and preparation.

-- richard

 

[trebark]

I see! i didnt find any extended box magazines to fit the vanguard. I think i will just go with a single shot 300 ultra mag.
I had planned on using the 210 bergers and 185 bergers.
i had interresting results with the ballistic calculator with these two bullets:
26" barrel, best average velocities i could find, 200 yard zero, 1.5 sight height, same conditions -|- 10mph wind
210 berger @ 3025FPS, .631 BC:
muzzle energy(ft/lb): 4267
1000 yard muzzle velocity(fps):1709
1000 yard come-up (moa): 22.4
1000 yard drift (moa): 5.54
1000 yard energy(ft/lb): 1362
185 berger @ 3314FPS, .549 BC:
muzzle energy: 4511
1000 yard muzzle velocity(fps): 1743
1000 yard come-up (moa): 19.7
1000 yard drift (moa): 5.82
1000 yard energy(ft/lb):1248

are my average velocities screwed up? to me it seems like the 185 would be the best choice. granted i know that i might end up with an accuracy node slower for the 185 and faster for the 210... then that would change my thoughts.. but for a generalization, it seems like the two bullets are nearly the same except for the 185 shooting significantly flatter.

now 1000+ yards is a different story, but i dont plan to shoot that far!

Interesting. I think your velocity assumptions are in the realm of reality. Given that, it does look like the better bullet is the 185. Never even thought to run the numbers with the 185. I always applied the conventional wisdom that the heavier/higher BC bullet would be better in the end. Of course, if you start looking beyond 1000yards, the heavier/higher BC bullet will take over.

Although you don't intend to hunt beyond 1k, practicing at 1200+ is great fun.

 

[Yoshie]

I havnt heard of a GS bullet.. Where to you get them? Is there a website?

If I short throat the vanguard would it reduce my potential velocity? What is bad about short throating besides reduced case capacity?