Which .338???

[Long Time Long Ranger]

06mauser, I have shot elk/moose size critters at long range with the following 338's; 338 win mag, 340 wby, 338 RUM, 338-300 ultramag, 338-378 wby and 338 Lapua. Shot animals with a few more 338's but not at long range. Like the 338 Gibbs and 338 Lapua improved. Shot many more on my range when I had it. At 1000 yards I can take animals with any of these or any similar round. When you get into the big 338's say from the 340 wby on up there is just not a lot of difference. But there is some difference and I like every fps I can get when shooting extremely long range in the wind. I just like to put the odds in my favor as much as possible. Say if I had to make one long range shot for a million dollars I would shoot the fastest rifle possible for the best chance of eliminating wind variables assuming all else is equal. Plus anytime you can get a couple hundred extra fps into an animal that is good particularly at long range.

When I had my shop and range I built and shot many guns side by side. On average the 340 wby will best the 338 win mag by 150 fps. The 338 RUM, 338-300 ultramag and 338 Lapua will best the 340 wby by about 100-125 fps. From shooting many of these three side by side the average would be maybe 35 fps in that order from slowest to fastest. In other words those three are all the same critter and will do anything the other will. Not the shooter or the animal would ever know the difference between the three. Then you go up to the 338 Lapua imp which is 75-100 fps faster than the previous three. Then the 338-378 wby which gets you on average 50-75 fps over the improved Lapua. Then the improved 338-378 wby, imp 338-416 rigby and similar powder capacity rounds will get 50-100 more fps. All told on average from the 338 RUM, 338-300 ultramag and standard Lapua to the 338-378 wby imp you are looking at 200-300 fps depending on the individual rifle. The average accuracy velocity of the first three is going to be around 2820 fps and the average of the fast ones will be right at 3100 fps. Run the numbers on JBM ballistics calculator or whatever you have and see how much difference that makes as the range and wind increase.

I have shot hundreds of rounds through all these cartridges and have not noticed a difference in barrel wear, accuracy or anything else between any of them. The fast ones cost a little more to shoot because of brass and powder consumption. But then compared to a hunt or all the other components there just isn't much difference. Lapua and Norma/wby brass is better than winchester/remington brass so it all averages out. I have not killed anything any faster or better with one over the other. The only thing I have noticed between any of them is shooting in the wind and the faster ones give you a slightly better chance of a first shot kill. Long range shooting is mental as much as anything. Confidence in knowing the most of every variable has been eliminated gives a shooter confidence he can make the shot. With that confidence he has a better chance for success.

Bottom line each shooter has to pick his priorities and build his rifle accordingly. For me, since I hunt all over North America on a regular basis, having access to over the counter shells for my gun is important because they can get lost. Airlines have done that to me more than once. So I shoot standard rounds like the 338 win mag. You can buy those about anywhere. My 338 ultramag instead of my two 338-300 ultra's because they both do exactly the same thing and I can buy 338 RUM in a pinch. My primary long range rifle is the standard 338-378 wby again because I can buy a box of bullets if need be in Alaska. It shoots the 300 grain smk 3060 fps out of my 28" barrel and weighs 10 3/4 pounds scoped out with bipod. My other load for it shoots the 225 nosler accubond at 3540 fps for shots out to around 1000 yards. It is also incredibly accurate. Wildcats are fun to play with and I have done more of those than most. But through the years I learned it was better to have standard rounds for my primary hunting rifles. I can better my 338-378 wby by a few fps with the improved 338-378 wby but again neither me or the animal would ever know the difference and I can't buy those anywhere. So I lose 50+ fps for the wind but I am in the game if I lose my bullets. Again give and take.

 

[AJBello]

...
My next questions is at what range are you starting to see bullet drift growing exponetially between the different cartridges, 500-700, 700-1000, 1000-1300. I do understand that the higher the wind speed that these numbers will seperate even more.

I was just wondering this because if you planned on not taking shots past that a certain point, would the different cartiridges act similarly enough to make to a moot point.

Thanks,
06

Go to: JBM - Calculations - Trajectory (Simplified)

Plug in whatever your usual hunting conditions are, select whichever bullet you want to use (300 SMK?), enter whatever wind you want to evaluate, and then change only the velocity and look at the drift differences.

For example, at 1000', 50 degrees, 50% humidity, 29.92 pressure, and a 10 MPH wind at 90 degrees using a .338 300 SMK:


2850 fps = 50" of wind drift at 1000 yards
3050 fps = 44.8" of wind drift at 1000 yards

2850 fps = 26.4" of wind drift at 750 yards
3050 fps = 23.7" of wind drift at 750 yards

So, how much extra trouble do you want to put yourself through to gain less than 3" at 750, or just over 5" at 1000? Obviously there's even faster cartridges out there (408 based), but be realistic about your needs in my opinion.

 

[B23]

LTLR

WOW! 10 3/4lbs in a cannon like that is truely impressive. Let alone you're spitting out a 300SMK 3060fps in a light contour 28in. barrel. Is that 28 including brake or 28 then the brake?

Any chance of you telling us what the build specs, ie. barrel contour, receiver, stock, scope, on that rifle are? I'm assuming it's on a MkV. Does it have Weatherby freebore or conventional? Definately sounds like a keeper that's for sure.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

AJ, thanks for the numbers. That is what I wanted 06mauser to see. But trouble, what trouble are you talking about and what are you comparing to get the trouble.

B23, MK5 action, 28"#4 hart barrel with KDF brake turned to barrel diameter. Standard Weatherby freebore. Synthetic stock of some sorts that it has been way to many years to remember. Burris Black diamond scope in 4-16x50. Had this rig for many years and hundreds of shots. It still will kill anything I want to shoot at at any legitimate range. I was shooting elk silhouettes at 1500 yards with it earlier this summer. As you can see I don't get into it product wise like a lot of guys but it makes the shots and that is what counts. I focus more on shooting and hunting instead of product lines. Through years of experience I can use mil dots instead of clicks to get me where I want and do many things old school that are not done by new guys who have grown up with all the newfangled gadgets of the past 10-15 years or so. All us old guys had to really learn how to shoot to be good at long range. All the new products sure make long range fun and bring many into the sport now. It is truly becoming the time to be a long range shooter. Think about all the stuff we didn't have 15 years ago, even 10.

 

[AJBello]

AJ, thanks for the numbers. That is what I wanted 06mauser to see. But trouble, what trouble are you talking about and what are you comparing to get the trouble.

The trouble (so to speak) of increased costs, recoil, muzzle blast, and decreased barrel life.

Everything else being equal, all of the above should hold true for the same caliber / bullet and increasing the powder charge. Cost increase could be negligible or substantial depending on the two specific calibers. Recoil / muzzle blast... I don't see how there's anyway around those if you're talking about lobbing the same projectile at a higher speed. Same with decreased barrel life. I don't profess to know what the difference would be, but there must be a difference. Basically, there ain't no free lunch!

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

AJ, I really don't know where to start but I think you have been fed some biased info somewhere down the line to draw your opinions. I could care less what a guy shoots as long as he is good with it. I have 40 years experience building rifles, shooting, reloading, etc. All I try to do here is answer questions the best I can using that experience to help people. I am not using opinions but facts I have learned from actually building, shooting and hunting with the rifles I talk about.

I could set up all the rifles I mentioned from the ultramags and faster identically with unstamped barrels and let you shoot them 1000 rounds and hunt all over with them. You would not be able to tell me which was which without drop tests or a chronograph obviously showing you which were the fast ones but you still wouldn't know which fast one. You would not be able to tell me from recoil, muzzle blast or barrel wear. You would be able to determine the fast ones from less drop to the target and less wind drift to the target. Or if you missed by 5 inches of wind drift or 15 inches of drop to target.

The fast ones are the best and eliminate the most variables in a hunting situation. No way you can get around that. I can best my standard 338-378 wby with an improved 338-378 wby. But I like the option of buying over the counter rounds so I choose not to shoot the best I can get. I feel 75 fps on average is not as important as buying rounds when the airlines loses them. That is trouble and why I don't go on big hunts or depend on any wildcat rounds. I own plenty of them and hunt around the house with them but not the big hunts.

This is how I eliminate potential trouble on big hunts. I own the 338 RUM, 338-300 ultramag and 338 Lapua. All three are essentially hunting equals and one just as accurate as the other. If I am going on a big hunt or advising someone building just one rifle to do it all. The 338 RUM and 338 Lapua is far and away going to be the choice. Why the trouble of loading and shooting a wildcat cartridge and not being able to buy bullets in a pinch when the other two do the same thing? That is preventing trouble. That comes from years of experience and not getting caught up in fads. I realize the 338-300 ultramag some on here call edge is very popular on this site from a lot of hype. It is an excellent cartridge and that is what I thought it would be when we got the specs from remington in 1998 on the 300 ultramag and I started immediately designing a 338 off of it. It was exactly what I had been looking for since the 70's to fit on a standard magnum action. Best 338 I had ever found to do that from a performance standpoint and cheap accesible remington brass. Did a ton of them during that time. But then the 338 RUM came out in 2001 that did the same thing and fit better on a standard magnum action. It became the better choice because it was over the counter products if a guy needed them in a pinch. No need the trouble of the 338-300 wildcat any more.

I use those as examples because those are the ones most mentioned in the thread but I can go into many calibers and cartridges the same way on how to prevent trouble. I can do that from facts I have learned and not opinions.

 

[AJBello]

LTLR - I don't think I've been "fed" anything. I am currently having an Edge built, but I don't think it's better than anything else per say. For me, It seemed to be the best answer in a large 338 for my needs. It would obviously get spanked by a 338 SnipeTac or the like. I'm simply saying that given the same caliber, the more powder you put behind it is going to have a result. Better on target performance, and the mentioned drawbacks as well. I don't need to have years of hands on time with the big 338s to know that. A similarly equipped 300 WM is going to recoil / blast more than a 308. It's going to cost more to shoot and it's going to have less barrel life. It's also going to have better on target performance. ... Action / Reaction kind of thing... I don't really know how that can be disputed logically. ?? You can't add 30 grains of powder or get 300 FPS more and not pay for it in some way. I'd love to hear the argument that you can!

I understand how the factory ammo thing could be appealing to someone who hunts all over. I don't, and so I could not possibly care less about it. I hunt Columbian Blacktail here in the Willamette Valley, Roosevelt Elk in the OR coast range, and Mule Deer in Eastern OR. I load my own ammo with care and precision and I go prepared. Hell, I don't even remember the last time I bought a box of ammo for my 308! ... I suspect many here fall into the same category. Factory ammo available or not I'm loading my own anyway and the Edge doesn't require any extra work at all.

I realize the 338-300 ultramag some on here call edge is very popular on this site from a lot of hype.

Do a simple google search for 338 Edge. It's not just popular on this site, nor is it just this site that refers to it as the Edge. You'll find board after board of discussions about it with a ton of praise from first hand experience. I don't think that comes from "hype" as you put it. It certainly isn't the end-all be-all of cartridges, nor is it anywhere near the fastest 338, obviously.

I could care less what a guy shoots as long as he is good with it.

Same here! Cheers!

 

[06mauser]

For the bigger 338's built off ofthe 378 case or larger is it even resonable to build a rifle that is in the 8 to 10 lb range with a scope? Is this sacrificing to much in barrel contour or length, bulk in the action, etc? Would the recoil be unreasonable for long sets at the bench building loads.

 

[pyroducksx3]

I have possibly a silly question. I know the 338 RUM was designed with a shorter shoulder , different specs, than the 300 RUM. I assume this is to prevent miss chambering the wrong round. To me it looks like if you had a 338/300 RUM that it would be possible to chamber the 338 RUM. If you did this wouldnt it be the same a making a fireforming load for say something that was AI'd, ie firing a 280 in a 280 AI chamber to fire form it. Again I'm not sure just seemed possible. So if you could do this than and if you lost your rounds for whatever reason you could still shoot the 338 RUM. Hopefully someone who knows the answer replies becasue I have no idea if this is accurate, this is only my though so I hope nobody reads this and gets confused. For safety sake I have no idea if you can shoot a 338 RUM in a 338/300 RUM chamber this is a question not a statement. Thank you

 

[06mauser]

From what I have gathered from this thread is that you can not shoot 338 UM ammunition in a 338 EDGE. Like you said the cartridge is shorter. I had the same thoughts also until that question was answered for me.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Both the 338-300 ultramag and 338 ultramag have a base diameter 0f .55" and a shoulder diameter of .525". The 338 RUM is .09" shorter. I know ten years ago when I was fooling with these two all the time we tried putting one in the other at my range but can't remember now. I think the 338 RUM would fit into the 338-300 chamber. The specs say it will anyway. I have both, I guess I could go find out and get back on here. It wouldn't shoot very well though if it did because of the .09" length difference.

Pyrodux, At the shot show in 2001 a Remington representative there when asked the question why they shortenned the 338RUM and didn't just neck up the 300 RUM this is what he said. To get proper feeding we would have to seat the 338 bullets to deep into the case if we kept the 300 RUM case length. The shortenned version feeds through our action much better without modification and allows us to seat the bullets out properly. Through extensive testing we found there was virtually no performance difference between the shortenned version we went with versus using the full length 300 ultramag case.

After the shot show I tested the 338-300 ultramag I had been doing for three years extensively head to head with the new 338 RUM on the 1000 yard range beside my shop. My testing verified what remington said at the shot show. Through the full range of bullets from 200-300 grains there was very little difference between the two and certainly not enough to give one a noticeable performance advantage over the other. With the 300 grain bullets both averaged around 2800 fps with best accuracy loads in 30" barrels with most I tested ranging from 2750-2850 fps. That was with powders available during that time ten years ago. My personal 338 RUM I hunt with now shoots the 300 grain smk 2730 fps with best accuracy. It is an off the shelf rem 700 stainless with the standard 26" barrel. If you extrapolated that out to a 30" barrel it would be about 2810 fps which is right in there about average for both cartridges.

 

[06mauser]

Well I think I am going to buy a barrelled action from a gun smith friend of mine. It is a Mauser Large Magnum Action chambered for 416 Rigby. I have looked at the ballistics and I still can launch a 300 grain Barnes TSX at 2700 fps and 350 grain Spitzers at 2600 fps. This rifle actually kills two birds with one stone. I have always wanted a Rigby for my future hunting endeveurs and it is a hell of a deal.

 

[jrmy_1]

I'd go with a 338 Edge for the following reasons.

1- Ease of forming brass. No fireforming.

2- Price of brass. Just buy 300RUM brass.

3- Simple to reload.

4- Mine sends 300SMKs happily on their way at 2870fps.

I concur!!!

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

338 RUM vs. 338-300 RUM

1. With 338-300 RUM you have the trouble of necking your brass from 30 to 338 caliber and fireforming. With the 338 RUM just buy your brass and load it, easy. Advantage 338 RUM

2. Price of brass is the same. Just buy 338 RUM brass, easy. Advantage 338 RUM.

3. 338 RUM is simple to reload. 338-300 RUM is trouble necking and loading for a wildcat cartridge. advantage 338 RUM

4. Both send 300 SMK's happily on there way at the same velocities with top accuracy loads with the exact same degree of accuracy. Both even use the same accuracy loads most of the time with 92-93 grains of H-1000 or 95-96 grains of retumbo. You can push both to 2900 fps with a fast 30" barrel or either may get top accuracy in the 2700's. This one is a wash. Take your pick.


5. The 338 RUM feeds better through standard magnum actions with less modification using long 338 caliber bullets. Advantage 338 RUM.


In 2001 when the 338 RUM came out I tested it head to head extensively on my range against the 338-300 RUM I had been doing for 2-3 years. I am an engineer and look at things very logically. There was no logical reason that I could see doing the 338-300 RUM after the 338 RUM came out. After doing many 338-300's in the late 90's I did my last one in 2001. I still have two of those original rifles and they get hardly any work. I always end up shooting my 338 RUM hunting. If the 338-300 gave me an advantage I wouldn't mind wildcatting the brass. I just got the same numbers with both so I go the easy route with the 338 RUM. The 338 Lapua across the weight range of bullets has always shot about 50-75 fps faster than either of the RUM's and the 338-378 wby's 200 fps faster. The lapua probably because of higher pressures with the lapua brass, the wby because it is a monster. At a thousand yards I could kill an elk just as effectively with any of them and include my 28" barrel 340 wby in the mix which shoots the 300 smk at 2735 fps with the best accuracy load.

I know my results continue to offend some guys who shoot the 338-300 RUM and I am sorry because I have no intentions of offending anyone. I just state what my results have been because I have quite a lot of experience with these two cartridges. The 338-300 RUM is a very good cartridge. But it is what it is and gives the shooter no advantage over the 338 RUM that I have found. Both are great long range cartridges. If a guy took a hundred guns in each and worked up loads until he blew the primer pockets out would the 338-300 win the velocity battle by a couple fps with slightly more powder capacity? Maybe. But the fact is they shoot identical numbers with accuracy loads with 90% of each one shooting 2750-2850 fps with 30" barrels. If I had to make a million dollar shot tommorrow it would make no difference to me which one I shot. Take your pick.

I am just reporting results from my personal testing. I welcome anyone to do that and it does not offend me. I look at the data and go from there. I have no favoritism toward any cartridge. I have and shoot many in all calibers.