What's happening to this brass?

[Varmint Hunter]

Everyone, on every site, that is annealing by every conceivable method, believes that they are getting great results. This clearly cannot be the case. I started using an EP Integrations annealer and things seem to go well, but I'm skeptical as to whether or not I'm actually getting properly annealed cases. They "look" properly annealed, but what does that prove?

For that matter, I'm curious if annealing is all that it is reported to be. Several national class benchrest shooters, who use the same brass repeatedly, have indicated that they never anneal. It's certainly something to think about.

 

[Reelamin]

You can't burn the zinc out of brass. It probably had some residual brass lube on it. The color change is from oxygen and heat. If something is on the brass less oxygen gets to the brass affecting color. That brass is not ruined.
Induction annealers heat the brass to over 1100f.
As long as you're not annealing the head or case walls you're fine. Torch annealing just barely gets the job done.
To anneal brass it takes 700f for an hour. 1000f gets it done in seconds

I echo this without all the technical info because I dont know it. I have flat cooked some brass and it works just like the nice pretty brass. Eric Cortina (you tube only one I remember now) did some intentional cooking of brass and his results were nothing wrong with it nor was it any different.

 

[PddPdd]

Have you measured the neck wall thickness on the two different pieces of brass that vary in color? It might be a clue.

 

[eod.tek]

Have you measured the neck wall thickness on the two different pieces of brass that vary in color? It might be a clue.

I have not yet, but they are the same lot of Lapua brass, so I'd imagine they wouldn't have too much variance, but I will definitely measure and compare.

 

[cohunt]

I use tempilac-- but it's different every time with torch/flame annealing so I always use tempilac paint to set my time in the flame.
What happens is if your flame distance is different or size of flame is different then the time in the flame will change-- the rotation speed is a constant with my setup but the flame size and distance is set by me-- human error is reduced with tempilac paint.

I purposely over cooked some brass in the beginning and it was definitely softer ( more easily bent) than by using my paint technique

Each person seems to have their own way to do it

 

[Mikecr]

You can't burn the zinc out of brass. It probably had some residual brass lube on it. The color change is from oxygen and heat. If something is on the brass less oxygen gets to the brass affecting color. That brass is not ruined.
Induction annealers heat the brass to over 1100f.
As long as you're not annealing the head or case walls you're fine. Torch annealing just barely gets the job done.
To anneal brass it takes 700f for an hour. 1000f gets it done in seconds

You're dead wrong in every regard.
You CAN ruin brass by burning the zinc out of it.
A torch CAN provide temps way beyond that needed to ruin brass.
1,100 degF,, 700deg for an hour,, is for FULL annealing.
WE DO NOT EVER WANT TO FULL ANNEAL FOR RELOADING.

What reloaders do properly is a process anneal, which is merely stress relieving.

 

[M1A1ABRAMS]

I echo this without all the technical info because I dont know it. I have flat cooked some brass and it works just like the nice pretty brass. Eric Cortina (you tube only one I remember now) did some intentional cooking of brass and his results were nothing wrong with it nor was it any different.

I was going to suggest the video myself. lol

 

[jasent]

You're dead wrong in every regard.
You CAN ruin brass by burning the zinc out of it.
A torch CAN provide temps way beyond that needed to ruin brass.
1,100 degF,, 700deg for an hour,, is for FULL annealing.
WE DO NOT EVER WANT TO FULL ANNEAL FOR RELOADING.

What reloaders do properly is a process anneal, which is merely stress relieving.

You can most certainly get it too soft but you can't burn the zinc out. You can melt it down and bring it to a boil but you can not remove ( burn) the zinc out. Sounds like you completely misunderstood my post

 

[Rosebud]

My method will remain A mystery! But I can make them look just like lapua new brass. Is it the same as new lapua ?? I don't know. But I'm getting double digit loads with starline and nosler. Over twenty with lapua. Yet to split a neck or have case head separated. Usually primer pockets go first.

 

[26Reload]

I hand torch mine....
My buddy that's reloaded for 30 years has never annealed......nothing....it's all in the head.....

 

[Mikecr]

I can make them look just like lapua new brass. Is it the same as new lapua ?? I don't know.

Lapua FULL anneals to form the cases. That's why it looks like that.
If you full anneal your brass, you would then have to work harden it (as Lapua did), or it will be too soft.

A perfect process anneal (which is not full anneal), barely changes color of cases.
That would be getting brass to ~850degF for ~5seconds or more. Dip annealing does it perfectly, as set to 850degF, and heating inside and out at once.
A torch is far higher, and raises the brass surface to higher temps before the thickness reaches desired. Hence all the coloring.
Given this, it's not viable to go by coloring.

 

[eod.tek]

I was going to suggest the video myself. lol

I've watched that video, but I wish he would have fired them, and then mybe even shot one a few more times to give an idea of longevity.

 

[eod.tek]

I agree that the brass was contaminated before annealing. If you wanted to know for sure I would Scotch-Brite the suspected "over annealed" brass resize it and load a projectile the pull the projectile. I would do the same process for another piece of annealed brass that is not suspected to be over annealed. After both projectiles are pulled then measure the neck OD for each. If one has been "over annealed" then there will be less spring back.

I suspect you will end up with the same neck OD on each.

I gave this a shot, and also picked up some once fired brass from the hide to compare (an expensive experiment), I did full case prep, seated a bullet in the torched looking, not torched looking, and once fired. The neck thickness of the once fired was a bit thicker before and after seating, but the spring back was the same at .002. also, anecdotally, using my hammer to pull the projectiles, they took nearly the same amount of hits/force to get the projectiles out. Going to load up 3 shots with each type of brass and compare velocity/es/sd/and group size.
But judging by what I saw loading and removing projecgiles, looks like maybe they're okay? I still think I'll load the "torched looking" for practice and normal looking ones for hunting.
The lot I picked up on the hide are all once fired matching lot, and mine all came from factory ammo, a few with different lots, so maybe I'll practice more on what I've got, confirm the new lot and transition to those.

 

[memtb]

Everyone, on every site, that is annealing by every conceivable method, believes that they are getting great results. This clearly cannot be the case. I started using an EP Integrations annealer and things seem to go well, but I'm skeptical as to whether or not I'm actually getting properly annealed cases. They "look" properly annealed, but what does that prove?

For that matter, I'm curious if annealing is all that it is reported to be. Several national class benchrest shooters, who use the same brass repeatedly, have indicated that they never anneal. It's certainly something to think about.

I'm in the group that doesn't anneal. However, I'm constantly haunted as to should I or don't do it! So……I don't!

Using my .375AI as an example, with near maximum loads. I'm getting good (I think) case life, and I discard after 10 firings. I chose 10 as I had a case separation just above the web at around 10 or 11 firings many years ago, concluding that 10 firings isn't too bad! My accuracy is pretty good, my extreme velocity spread is higher than I would like…..though not too bad.

As mentioned by some there are so many different views on "how to" ……it appears to be a "black art"! Many years ago I tried to anneal, and ended up with case shoulder/neck area were too soft IMO. Made me paranoid and haven't annealed since.

With the shortage and expense of components these days…..I fear screwing-up and losing near irreplaceable brass!

I'd like to try again to potentially increase case life and perhaps improve group size, but have such a phobia that I'll probably require time on the psychiatrist's coach before attempting again!

Well, I got that of off my chest and am feeling much better now, but am still paranoid! So, should I take some brass that is nearing my imposed "firing limit" and experiment with those cases? Help needed! memtb