What second rifle for western hunting?

[dogz]

I spoke to Seekins about doing a 20" 7PRC barrel. I've been told they'll do whatever barrel you want by them and been told differently. This rep said unless I order a custom shop rifle for $3900 then it's gotta be an off the shelf barrel option but said they could make me a 22" lightweight barrel like on the element so I could have a 22" barrel at least. I think that might be a better option weight and balance wise than going with an Element and I'd still have a 26" barrel to spin on if I wanted to use it to go shoot some ELR. If I was going to go the custom shop route then I'd just spend a little more and get a SLAM but that's not what I really want or what I want to spend.



I don't think this is the place for this debate but theres a huge thread on rokslide about it which you're probably aware of. It clearly works and there's people who live out in elk country that swear by it and people who travel to elk country who swear by it. It's not the tool for the job I'd choose but it's clearly effective and I wouldn't say it's not a right tool for the job. I've got a family friend that has gone out west almost every year since I was a kid and harvested elk, he brings two 6mm's (6-284 and 243 backup rifle) both shooting 95gr Bergers and has successfully killed elk every time and has shot some of them over 600 yards. He swears by it and I'd guess if he had animals getting away he would bring something else since he's got a pile of rifles.

On paper my 6ARC with 103ELDX doesn't dip below 1800fps until 600 yards and carries the 1600fps minimum expansion to 725 and based on shooting it at distance I would feel 100% confident putting one where it needed to go, but I wouldn't choose to use it unless it's all I had. I could even use it as my backup rifle and be confident especially since I could put 3 shots on target extremely fast, but I'd still like to hit a big animal a little harder and it's heavier than I really want to carry much. Any east coast hunting though it's 100% what I'm grabbing from varmints to white tail

Your 257's will do very well as well your 6's.

What year and what state is your hunt at?

And not to turn this thread into the toidy but Mountain Sloths comments about "pumping 6mm slugs into elk" is way freaking off base and tells me a ton load about MS. I'd be for betting that as a general rule those using the vaious 6's put elk on the turf just as fast and with as few or less rounds expended than the big belted mags! Heck I know of more than a few elk who've made their way into the deep freezes on friends via 22/250's and Swifts.

Killing elk just isn't rocket science despite many people's efforts to make it so.

We all have our limitations, ideally people understand that and keep to those limitations....ideally

 

[Mountain Sloth]

please tell me you are showing up to elk camp with a 22-250… to be clear I'm not advocating for using anything less than the right tool for the job. If the 22-250 is your huckleberry use it. But for me an elk rifle, and being he's already got a deer rifle in the 6.5cm, starts at 270 win and you can't kill them to dead. But I understand people have different recoil tolerance and rifle fit. The 300 prc or 7prc would make fine additions, and with a brake or can would be easily shootable. A braked 300 win with 200 grain bullets is something I'd let my 13 year old daughter shoot. But it's your tag and your money and your adventure take what risks you want

 

[Lee7588]

The OP has yet to answer questions about what the intended animal is that will be hunted. I think at this point the OP going on this hunt is a dream that hopefully one day they will get to fulfill.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

The OP has yet to answer questions about what the intended animal is that will be hunted. I think at this point the OP going on this hunt is a dream that hopefully one day they will get to fulfill.

I'll be hunting elk and maybe mule deer if I have the time. I have not finalized everything but it's in the works. What does it matter to you? Yes it is a dream of mine to go on a western hunt and I'm finally making it happen. I had a question about what rifle to bring as my second rifle, if you don't wish to participate because I don't have everything booked yet then you are free to exit the thread.

 

[Lee7588]

I'll be hunting elk and maybe mule deer if I have the time. I have not finalized everything but it's in the works. What does it matter to you? Yes it is a dream of mine to go on a western hunt and I'm finally making it happen. I had a question about what rifle to bring as my second rifle, if you don't wish to participate because I don't have everything booked yet then you are free to exit the thread.

Multiple people have asked you what you would be hunting and you never seem to answer. Knowing the animals you are wanting to hunt makes it easier to recommend an appropriate cartridge. Don't get your panties in a wad.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Multiple people have asked you what you would be hunting and you never seem to answer. Knowing the animals you are wanting to hunt makes it easier to recommend an appropriate cartridge. Don't get your panties in a wad.

That's because in the first sentence I said "western big game". I'll be using these rifles on future hunts as well so I want two rifles that can cover everything pretty well. Anyone should be able to use their imagination to figure out what that means. So no I'm not going to respond to dumb questions asking me if I'll be hunting varmints, coyotes or what when I started the thread with "western big game".

 

[FEENIX]

If thinking that you might shoot past 600 yds on an animal, leave the CM at home IMO. I don't take a shot on an animal if the energy of the bullet is below 1000 ft lbs. I'd pack a 300 win or a 300 PRC. For my ethics that gives enough energy to take the animal quickly.

I don't necessarily buy into the 1000 ftlbs theory with modern bullets because you could blow a big portion of that energy out the other side on a pass through or dump it all without a pass through. But my 6.5 with 143 ELDX at the 2730fps I got with it stays above 1800fps (200 more than minimum expansion velocity) and over 1000ftlbs out to 725 yards. So by that theory it's a 700 yard big game round.

You asked for recommendations/feedback, and you got one. We can only advise; what you do with it is entirely up to you. Modern bullets or not, there are varying energy transfer/dump levels with varying bullet design/construction. Many people, including bullet makers, do not adhere to energy transfers. It is not the only factor, but like @Lee7588, "my" unwritten rule is 1500 FT-LBS for the elk-size game and 1000 FT-LBS for the deer-size game and greaten the recommended minimum velocity for the bullet to expand effectively at the point of impact. I use bullets that dump most of my energy on impact. I am a long-time Nosler and Hornady user before transitioning to Berger bullets as my go-to bullets. One of the reasons is that it does not need a pass-through to be effective, and it also reduces the risks of injuring/killing beyond the target. Yes, this boils down to personal preference/intended purpose.


As far as I know, Norma was the first to measure energy transfer.


The beauty of it is that we still have the freedom of choice, and plenty of it thus far.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

please tell me you are showing up to elk camp with a 22-250… to be clear I'm not advocating for using anything less than the right tool for the job. If the 22-250 is your huckleberry use it. But for me an elk rifle, and being he's already got a deer rifle in the 6.5cm, starts at 270 win and you can't kill them to dead. But I understand people have different recoil tolerance and rifle fit. The 300 prc or 7prc would make fine additions, and with a brake or can would be easily shootable. A braked 300 win with 200 grain bullets is something I'd let my 13 year old daughter shoot. But it's your tag and your money and your adventure take what risks you want

You do realize that 6.5CM loads have better ballistics and retained velocity and energy than most 270 loads once you're beyond a couple hundred yards, right? You call a 6.5CM a deer rifle yet a bullet that's .013" larger in diameter is magically an elk rifle even though is ballistically inferior beyond short range.

I have a hard time taking advice from people with ideology like this because it lacks logic and reason. I would not hesitate to shoot an elk out to 600 yards with my 6.5CM. A **** load of them have been killed with .224" and .243" bullets and there's pages of pictures that show it. A lot of elk have also been wounded with magnums by people that can't shoot, and a bunch of people have come hear telling me to buy 30 cal magnums that I've stated are over what I can comfortably shoot in a hunting weight rifle.

I started deer hunting in VA in an area with pretty big deer and everybody said I needed a magnum because they think deer are invincible. I bought a 300RUM for my first deer rifle which knocked the **** out of me and blew deer all to hell, especially close range ones that the bullets splashed on from the high impact velocities. I shot a doe that wasn't very big 5 times at about 30 yards once and it just blew massive chunks out of her. Then I started culling deer on bean fields and realized how easy they actually are to kill. One day I was out hunting groundhogs with my LVSF 223 with Winchester 45gr HP varmint bullets and some deer came out a little over 300 yards. I shot one and it dropped. The others ran out to almost 400 yards and stopped. I shot another one and it dropped. After that I started hunting during season with a 243 because it's the smallest thing that was legal that I could buy ammo factory ammo for.

When I go up to VA to hunt next season I'm going to take my 6ARC, not my 6.5CM "deer rifle".

 

[Lee7588]

And when asked you never answered what game. You would have done much better by answering the questions about the game instead of giving a general term. You asked for input and then argue with the answers you get. So if you want to go hunt elk with a 223, 253, 6 mm, 6.5 cm then go do it. Good luck on fulfilling your dream hunt

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Since it's not clear, I want a two rifle system to cover ALL WESTERN BIG GAME.

 

[Lee7588]

You do realize that 6.5CM loads have better ballistics and retained velocity and energy than most 270 loads once you're beyond a couple hundred yards, right? You call a 6.5CM a deer rifle yet a bullet that's .013" larger in diameter is magically an elk rifle even though is ballistically inferior beyond short range.

I have a hard time taking advice from people with ideology like this because it lacks logic and reason. I would not hesitate to shoot an elk out to 600 yards with my 6.5CM. A **** load of them have been killed with .224" and .243" bullets and there's pages of pictures that show it. A lot of elk have also been wounded with magnums by people that can't shoot, and a bunch of people have come hear telling me to buy 30 cal magnums that I've stated are over what I can comfortably shoot in a hunting weight rifle.

I started deer hunting in VA in an area with pretty big deer and everybody said I needed a magnum because they think deer are invincible. I bought a 300RUM for my first deer rifle which knocked the **** out of me and blew deer all to hell, especially close range ones that the bullets splashed on from the high impact velocities. I shot a doe that wasn't very big 5 times at about 30 yards once and it just blew massive chunks out of her. Then I started culling deer on bean fields and realized how easy they actually are to kill. One day I was out hunting groundhogs with my LVSF 223 with Winchester 45gr HP varmint bullets and some deer came out a little over 300 yards. I shot one and it dropped. The others ran out to almost 400 yards and stopped. I shot another one and it dropped. After that I started hunting during season with a 243 because it's the smallest thing that was legal that I could buy ammo factory ammo for.

When I go up to VA to hunt next season I'm going to take my 6ARC, not my 6.5CM "deer rifle"

If you are saying you were shooting deer in Virginia with a 223 and then switched to a 243 to be legal. It isn't very smart to post that you were shooting deer with an undersized caliber. That would be breaking laws.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

If you are saying you were shooting deer in Virginia with a 223 and then switched to a 243 to be legal. It isn't very smart to post that you were shooting deer with an undersized caliber. That would be breaking laws.

What is your malfunction? First you can't read the first sentence of my post and get mad when I constantly ignored you, now you're accusing me of breaking the law because you don't know *** you're talking about and reading comprehension got the best of you again. Go back and check the part were I stated CULLING DEER. You can shoot them with whatever you want and whenever you want with crop damage tags in most states including VA.

Thank you for contributing nothing positive and welcome to my ignore list.

 

[FEENIX]

Since it's not clear, I want a two rifle system to cover ALL WESTERN BIG GAME.

I know that elk is on your list. How far are you willing and able to shoot an elk? This will help you decide on caliber/chambering/load set-up.

My go-to chambering from antelope to elk size game to 1KY is the .300 WM (with 215 Berger), even though my .30 LARA (230/245) has more OOMP. Beyond the 1KY, I will transition to my .338 Thor (250/300 Berger).

 

[belldar]

It sounds like you know everything already. Why even ask on a forum for help if you are going to criticize everyone who is legit trying to help you.