What second rifle for western hunting?

[AZShooter]

Interesting opinions. All of your options will work. Having spent over 40 years hunting in the West I have my opinions too. I realize what I am commenting on is not on your list. Wish I knew what I know now would have started with these options for Western hunting back in the early 80s

Western hunting encompasses so many animals. I like the 338 cal for the larger animals. Have two: one lightweight, 7 1/4 lb 338 RCM, for elk, bears etc in close cover or a 10 lb 338 RUM with a 300 gr high BC bullet for more open country. I will admit I have killed 30 elk many with 7mms and 30s . It took many seasons to sort stuff out.

For the thinner-skinned animals like deer, antelope, javelina and coyotes, IMO the 257 Weatherby shooting a 115 Berger around 3600-3650 fps is one of the best. Mild recoil, very flat trajectory so you can shoot some long distances without consulting a rangefinder and using stadia/turret out to 400 plus yards. My friends and I have a total of six 257s we have taken quite a few animals:
31 coues wt
8 elk
4 mule deer
2 antelope (if we could get tags the number would be higher)
This cartridge is awesome.
My rifle has a 27 1/2 barrel 3675 fps is set for 4400 ft elevation:
2.3" high at 100
Apogee at 200 yds 3.6"
.3" low at 350 yds
7.1" low at 450 yds
12" low at 500 yds

While most rifles and chamberings will work, some work better than others. Your choice.

 

[David_h]

6.5 CM for deer antelope and 300 PRC for larger. With a big brake like Browning Recoil Hawg or similar aftermarket; the recoil is not an issue on 30 caliber magnums.

 

[kgarrett]

I'm putting together a two rifle system for general western big game hunting. I know it can be done with one and could be done with what I already have, but I want to bring two rifles with me and none of my others would be well suited for it. Factory ammo availability is a must, but it being somewhat limited (7PRC for example) doesn't bother me too much since I have a rifle in 6.5CM that would work for everything in a pinch. I don't plan to or desire to harvest game at 1000+ yards, 600 yards is where I'm very comfortable placing a first round hit in all but the worst field conditions, in perfect conditions I might extend that to 800 yards.

I've got a Seekins PH2 NRL in 6.5 CM already. It's just a PH2 with an extra sling stud and MLOK section in the forend and a TT Diamond trigger. I put a Hawkins tank brake on it thats not too concussive to help with positional shooting and spotting and don't plan on running a suppressor due to the 24" barrel but I can easily run my TBAC Ultra 7 if I wanted or pull the brake and run plain muzzle. I'll use this for NRL Hunter matches, long range shooting (I have other target rifles as well), and medium game hunting. It weighs a hair over 9lbs with optic and mag (no bipod) and right at 10lbs with bipod.

For the second rifle I think I'd like to still stick to a Seekins. I'm very happy with all of mine and I really like the stock on the PH2 and everything about it. I don't know if I want to run my suppressor on one or not, if I do I don't want a 24-26" barrel though. Beyond that I'm not sure what to get I'm going back and forth between a PH2 and an Element and also the chambering.

So I'm considering the following options, in no particular order of preference:

1. Element in 6.5 CM and run my TBAC ultra 7 for about a +1.5" length penalty over my PH2 NRL with brake or +3.5" penalty over plain muzzle. It would weigh about the same (probably a hair less overall) and be suppressed, use the same ammo, and get me a backup rifle. I could also run it without the can or a brake for a more compact and lighter rifle for mountain and timber hunting. The downside is it wouldn't add any practical capabilities to my two rifle system otherwise, but I'm not sure I need something with more downrange performance or a bigger bullet. With two 6.5CM's I'd probably cut my shots off at 600 yards though since that would give me about a +200FPS threshold over the minimum expansion velocities of the 143gr ELDX or 127gr LRX bullets I'd run.

2. Element in 7PRC. I would shoot this suppressed for hunting or with a brake. Where it would end up weight wise would probably be a little over my comfort threshold for recoil with plain muzzle so that wouldn't happen. I'd probably shoot it at the range less because of the recoil and barrel profile, but I'd shoot it enough and I've got my PH2 for that anyway.

3. PH2 in 7PRC (also considering 7RM) and leave it as is. At 7.2lbs bare it's heavy enough I'd be comfortable shooting it a bit without a brake in either PRC or RM and the 26" barrel would be the same length as my 6.5 with the brake which I don't consider unwieldy. I've hunting in VA in both the woods and fields since I was a kid and used a 26" barrel rifle more than anything else for big game although I did hunt quite a bit with shorter barrels both suppressed and not. For most of my shooting with this option I'd probably get another Hawkins brake for it. I like that this could double as a ELR range toy as well since I don't have one currently, but that's not a top priority, it would just be a plus to this option.

4. PH2 with a second barrel. If I went this route I'd probably buy it in 7RM or 300WM just to have another option (300WM makes more since in this scenario in my mind) and then have Seekins make me a second barrel in a 20" 7PRC configuration to run suppressed. I could also just get it in 7PRC like option 3 and also add a 20" barrel for hunting suppressed and consolidate ammo. I wouldn't bring both barrels with me, wrench, and barrel vise out west with me most likely to take advantage of having a third caliber, but I suppose I could if I wanted to as long as I wasn't flying.

5. Other? I've considered getting a LA origin and putting a 7PRC or something (or multiple barrels) together on a MDT HNT26 but I already know it's not going to really do anything that another Seekins won't other than cost more. I've also considered other factory rifles but keep coming back to the Seekins. I've also considered just getting a classic Remington BDL in 308 or 30-06 since it would be perfectly adequate too and I think they look nice. I'd probably use it more as a high country and woods rifle though and limit my shots to 500 yards or so since velocity would be lower for expansion with those with any of the factory ammo I'd run.

I haven't hunted out west beyond coyotes and prairie dogs. I know some put high priority on weight when hunting in high country which I may do (I have no idea what terrain I'll be hunting), but I don't shoot extremely light rifles well and would rather carry an extra pound to have a more stable shootable rifle. 8.5lbs is about as light as I'd like to possibly go and that's about where an element would end up kitted out. So I don't want a lighter rifle than that. I also don't know how much of a PITA it would be hunting out west with a braked rifle but on the east coast things often happen quick and at close range and getting ear pro in isn't an option a lot of the time beyond stand hunting. A lot of people seem to hunt with brakes though and it's becoming more and more common so I guess it's not that big of an issue. I like that game doesn't tend to spook as much with a suppressor and I've killed multiple deer before because of that but I just don't know how much of an advantage that would really be unless I'm hunting along side someone else that also had a tag and multiple animals presented themselves. That might also be stupid to have two animals down if they were somewhere that they needed to be packed out.

So for those who do a lot of western hunting, what would you do and why? How important is having something more than 6.5CM vs having two rifles that use the same ammo and almost shoot the same dope. How important is suppressed vs braked vs plain muzzle. How important is having an inch or few more or less on the muzzle and a half pound or so weight?

7 PRC for sure. With the Element and a suppressor will be very manageable and be excellent across all western big game.

If really worried about recoil, get it in a PH2 or get an Element in 6.5 PRC. 300 magnums are out if recoil is a concern for you at all. I moved up from a 7 RM to a 300 PRC in addition to a 6.5 PRC. If I was going to go to a single western game cartridge it would be 7 PRC. An ultralight 6.5 CM hunting rifle is great for mountain and deer sized game, but is a little underpowered outside 200 yds for elk and moose IMO.

7 RM and 300 Win Mag are fantastic cartridges, but 7 PRC is the new hotness. Ammo availability will improve for the 7 PRC, but if the rifle turns out not to be exactly what you want resale will be better in 7 PRC IMO.

 

[dogz]

I'm putting together a two rifle system for general western big game hunting. I know it can be done with one and could be done with what I already have, but I want to bring two rifles with me and none of my others would be well suited for it. Factory ammo availability is a must, but it being somewhat limited (7PRC for example) doesn't bother me too much since I have a rifle in 6.5CM that would work for everything in a pinch. I don't plan to or desire to harvest game at 1000+ yards, 600 yards is where I'm very comfortable placing a first round hit in all but the worst field conditions, in perfect conditions I might extend that to 800 yards.

I've got a Seekins PH2 NRL in 6.5 CM already. It's just a PH2 with an extra sling stud and MLOK section in the forend and a TT Diamond trigger. I put a Hawkins tank brake on it thats not too concussive to help with positional shooting and spotting and don't plan on running a suppressor due to the 24" barrel but I can easily run my TBAC Ultra 7 if I wanted or pull the brake and run plain muzzle. I'll use this for NRL Hunter matches, long range shooting (I have other target rifles as well), and medium game hunting. It weighs a hair over 9lbs with optic and mag (no bipod) and right at 10lbs with bipod.

For the second rifle I think I'd like to still stick to a Seekins. I'm very happy with all of mine and I really like the stock on the PH2 and everything about it. I don't know if I want to run my suppressor on one or not, if I do I don't want a 24-26" barrel though. Beyond that I'm not sure what to get I'm going back and forth between a PH2 and an Element and also the chambering.

So I'm considering the following options, in no particular order of preference:

1. Element in 6.5 CM and run my TBAC ultra 7 for about a +1.5" length penalty over my PH2 NRL with brake or +3.5" penalty over plain muzzle. It would weigh about the same (probably a hair less overall) and be suppressed, use the same ammo, and get me a backup rifle. I could also run it without the can or a brake for a more compact and lighter rifle for mountain and timber hunting. The downside is it wouldn't add any practical capabilities to my two rifle system otherwise, but I'm not sure I need something with more downrange performance or a bigger bullet. With two 6.5CM's I'd probably cut my shots off at 600 yards though since that would give me about a +200FPS threshold over the minimum expansion velocities of the 143gr ELDX or 127gr LRX bullets I'd run.

2. Element in 7PRC. I would shoot this suppressed for hunting or with a brake. Where it would end up weight wise would probably be a little over my comfort threshold for recoil with plain muzzle so that wouldn't happen. I'd probably shoot it at the range less because of the recoil and barrel profile, but I'd shoot it enough and I've got my PH2 for that anyway.

3. PH2 in 7PRC (also considering 7RM) and leave it as is. At 7.2lbs bare it's heavy enough I'd be comfortable shooting it a bit without a brake in either PRC or RM and the 26" barrel would be the same length as my 6.5 with the brake which I don't consider unwieldy. I've hunting in VA in both the woods and fields since I was a kid and used a 26" barrel rifle more than anything else for big game although I did hunt quite a bit with shorter barrels both suppressed and not. For most of my shooting with this option I'd probably get another Hawkins brake for it. I like that this could double as a ELR range toy as well since I don't have one currently, but that's not a top priority, it would just be a plus to this option.

4. PH2 with a second barrel. If I went this route I'd probably buy it in 7RM or 300WM just to have another option (300WM makes more since in this scenario in my mind) and then have Seekins make me a second barrel in a 20" 7PRC configuration to run suppressed. I could also just get it in 7PRC like option 3 and also add a 20" barrel for hunting suppressed and consolidate ammo. I wouldn't bring both barrels with me, wrench, and barrel vise out west with me most likely to take advantage of having a third caliber, but I suppose I could if I wanted to as long as I wasn't flying.

5. Other? I've considered getting a LA origin and putting a 7PRC or something (or multiple barrels) together on a MDT HNT26 but I already know it's not going to really do anything that another Seekins won't other than cost more. I've also considered other factory rifles but keep coming back to the Seekins. I've also considered just getting a classic Remington BDL in 308 or 30-06 since it would be perfectly adequate too and I think they look nice. I'd probably use it more as a high country and woods rifle though and limit my shots to 500 yards or so since velocity would be lower for expansion with those with any of the factory ammo I'd run.

I haven't hunted out west beyond coyotes and prairie dogs. I know some put high priority on weight when hunting in high country which I may do (I have no idea what terrain I'll be hunting), but I don't shoot extremely light rifles well and would rather carry an extra pound to have a more stable shootable rifle. 8.5lbs is about as light as I'd like to possibly go and that's about where an element would end up kitted out. So I don't want a lighter rifle than that. I also don't know how much of a PITA it would be hunting out west with a braked rifle but on the east coast things often happen quick and at close range and getting ear pro in isn't an option a lot of the time beyond stand hunting. A lot of people seem to hunt with brakes though and it's becoming more and more common so I guess it's not that big of an issue. I like that game doesn't tend to spook as much with a suppressor and I've killed multiple deer before because of that but I just don't know how much of an advantage that would really be unless I'm hunting along side someone else that also had a tag and multiple animals presented themselves. That might also be stupid to have two animals down if they were somewhere that they needed to be packed out.

So for those who do a lot of western hunting, what would you do and why? How important is having something more than 6.5CM vs having two rifles that use the same ammo and almost shoot the same dope. How important is suppressed vs braked vs plain muzzle. How important is having an inch or few more or less on the muzzle and a half pound or so weight?

Best question I have is when and where is your hunt? (sorry if you said it during all the intitial gack I didn't get thru it all.... Guided or on your own?

And yes I do and have done a ton load of elk hunting during my last 45 years of living in Montana.

Side note, I'd do a lightish weight 7 RM or 7 PRC with a 2.5-10 NF on it. Goal being to keep the weight "all up" (scoped, rings, sling, rounds) at 9 lbs or less....shoot a 180 Berger or Scenar.

 

[Lee7588]

If you are concerned about having ammo when you are hunting have a box delivered to the area you are going. To the outfitter or post office in the area of the airport.

 

[kgarrett]

Forgot to say - forget the brake. If suppressors were an option, I'd throw my brakes in the garbage. Here in Canada, suppressors are prohibited.

So, PH2 if hunting unsuppressed and want to do more long range shooting at the range. The Element with a 22" barrel, a can, an optic in 7 PRC is **** near the perfect 1 rifle western big game rifle IMO. Should be a ton of fun at the range too. You're looking at around 2.5 lbs for a can and an optic. Puts the Element at ~8.5 lbs - perfect.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Interesting opinions. All of your options will work. Having spent over 40 years hunting in the West I have my opinions too. I realize what I am commenting on is not on your list. Wish I knew what I know now would have started with these options for Western hunting back in the early 80s

Western hunting encompasses so many animals. I like the 338 cal for the larger animals. Have two: one lightweight, 7 1/4 lb 338 RCM, for elk, bears etc in close cover or a 10 lb 338 RUM with a 300 gr high BC bullet for more open country. I will admit I have killed 30 elk many with 7mms and 30s . It took many seasons to sort stuff out.

For the thinner-skinned animals like deer, antelope, javelina and coyotes, IMO the 257 Weatherby shooting a 115 Berger around 3600-3650 fps is one of the best. Mild recoil, very flat trajectory so you can shoot some long distances without consulting a rangefinder and using stadia/turret out to 400 plus yards. My friends and I have a total of six 257s we have taken quite a few animals:
31 coues wt
8 elk
4 mule deer
2 antelope (if we could get tags the number would be higher)
This cartridge is awesome.
My rifle has a 27 1/2 barrel 3675 fps is set for 4400 ft elevation:
2.3" high at 100
Apogee at 200 yds 3.6"
.3" low at 350 yds
7.1" low at 450 yds
12" low at 500 yds

While most rifles and chambering will work, some work better than others. Your choice.

I'm glad those work from you. I've had a couple 338WM's and a 338RUM. I don't shoot them well, poor shooting is how animals are wounded and judging by the fact there's people successfully hunting elk with 223's I certainly don't think that I need a 338 to kill and elk nor will I entertain something I already know won't work for me.

I have also owned two 257 Weatherbys. Neither shot well with factory ammo and the ammo is non existent. Zero interest in it.

The options listed and parameters are what works for me. This will be the last far off the reservation comment that I respond to. If people want to waste their time with stuff like this fine, but you're not going to convince me to go with anything remotely in the realm of this.

7 PRC for sure. With the Element and a suppressor will be very manageable and be excellent across all western big game.

If really worried about recoil, get it in a PH2 or get an Element in 6.5 PRC. 300 magnums are out if recoil is a concern for you at all. I moved up from a 7 RM to a 300 PRC in addition to a 6.5 PRC. If I was going to go to a single western game cartridge it would be 7 PRC. An ultralight 6.5 CM hunting rifle is great for mountain and deer sized game, but is a little underpowered outside 200 yds for elk and moose IMO.

7 RM and 300 Win Mag are fantastic cartridges, but 7 PRC is the new hotness. Ammo availability will improve for the 7 PRC, but if the rifle turns out not to be exactly what you want resale will be better in 7 PRC IMO.

This is why I'm heavily leaning towards the 7PRC in either, just trying to decide how beneficial it would be to hunt suppressed. I would say of all the options I'm probably mostly leaning towards the PH2 in 7PRC. If I decide I want the suppressor I can have a shorter barrel made for it and have two barrels (two different chamber options if I want) and a more shootable rifle.

Ammo options just doubled this year for it so it's certainly gaining traction and I think it will continue to do so, so that isn't a concern of mine. I recently got a Seekins 6ARC gas gun and every Hornady load absolutely hammers in it so I'm pretty confident in factory ammo working well in it. If for some reason it didn't I could just as easily send it in to have a 7RM barrel made for it too and have a ton of ammo options.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Forgot to say - forget the brake. If suppressors were an option, I'd throw my brakes in the garbage. Here in Canada, suppressors are prohibited.

So, PH2 if hunting unsuppressed and want to do more long range shooting at the range. The Element with a 22" barrel, a can, an optic in 7 PRC is **** near the perfect 1 rifle western big game rifle IMO. Should be a ton of fun at the range too. You're looking at around 2.5 lbs for a can and an optic. Puts the Element at ~8.5 lbs - perfect.

I have multiple cans and brakes and like both and often shoot both ways on the same rifles. If I go with the PH2 I'd still run a brake at the range because they reduce recoil more and in a lighter rifle that's important to me.

Honestly unless there's a solid argument for running a can for western hunting outside of noise I'd probably just run plain muzzle and trade the extra velocity to have the same OAL instead. I've shot a lot of stuff without a suppressor and the noise never bothered me and I don't think a few more shots on a hunting trip are going to make my ears ring more than they already do. Muzzle brakes are a different story though and even with one that's not super concussive I still don't want to crack shots off without ear pro, so unless it's pretty typical to have the time to get ear pro on then I wouldn't hunt with it. Hence why I want something I'm comfortable shooting unbraked.

 

[ARlife4me]

Don't thread any and go with a 20-22" barrel regardless of cartridge. Use barrel profile to decide on weight. I'm not a 7 fan, but own a 7-08 and 7saum. I'd go 300wm. With you only going 600 and 800 is less of a possibility there's no need for the 300prc with a small amount of velocity gain. About the only gain is most 300prc ammo will offer heavier bullets for hunting (same goes for the 7's). What is the largest animal you think you'll shoot? Having a 6.5creed you have deer sized and smaller covered. Don't worry about popularity is that's any concern? You might want to obtain said ammo before going with a build since you don't reload? Ask Seekins what ammo they used for testing on accuracy for a start.

 

[AZShooter]

I understand your position. Except for shooting big game animals we are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I handload for all my rifles.

Want to add if you or anyone else reads this thread here is an important takeaway. When making a custom choose the reamer specs. An example is that 257 Weatherby. It has a shorter freebore and a 1 1/2 degree throat angle. Combine that with handloading and IMO you get superior performance. Rifle looneys understand.

 

[Mountain Sloth]

If you plan to travel for hunting out west why wouldn't you bring the correct tool for the job? Hunting elk with a 223 while very doable if you can get with range is like trying to frame a house with a finishing hammer... that is another way animals are wounded and/or lost.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I spoke to Seekins about doing a 20" 7PRC barrel. I've been told they'll do whatever barrel you want by them and been told differently. This rep said unless I order a custom shop rifle for $3900 then it's gotta be an off the shelf barrel option but said they could make me a 22" lightweight barrel like on the element so I could have a 22" barrel at least. I think that might be a better option weight and balance wise than going with an Element and I'd still have a 26" barrel to spin on if I wanted to use it to go shoot some ELR. If I was going to go the custom shop route then I'd just spend a little more and get a SLAM but that's not what I really want or what I want to spend.

If you plan to travel for hunting out west why wouldn't you bring the correct tool for the job? Hunting elk with a 223 while very doable if you can get with range is like trying to frame a house with a finishing hammer... that is another way animals are wounded and/or lost.

I don't think this is the place for this debate but theres a huge thread on rokslide about it which you're probably aware of. It clearly works and there's people who live out in elk country that swear by it and people who travel to elk country who swear by it. It's not the tool for the job I'd choose but it's clearly effective and I wouldn't say it's not a right tool for the job. I've got a family friend that has gone out west almost every year since I was a kid and harvested elk, he brings two 6mm's (6-284 and 243 backup rifle) both shooting 95gr Bergers and has successfully killed elk every time and has shot some of them over 600 yards. He swears by it and I'd guess if he had animals getting away he would bring something else since he's got a pile of rifles.

On paper my 6ARC with 103ELDX doesn't dip below 1800fps until 600 yards and carries the 1600fps minimum expansion to 725 and based on shooting it at distance I would feel 100% confident putting one where it needed to go, but I wouldn't choose to use it unless it's all I had. I could even use it as my backup rifle and be confident especially since I could put 3 shots on target extremely fast, but I'd still like to hit a big animal a little harder and it's heavier than I really want to carry much. Any east coast hunting though it's 100% what I'm grabbing from varmints to white tail

 

[Mountain Sloth]

I spoke to Seekins about doing a 20" 7PRC barrel. I've been told they'll do whatever barrel you want by them and been told differently. This rep said unless I order a custom shop rifle for $3900 then it's gotta be an off the shelf barrel option but said they could make me a 22" lightweight barrel like on the element so I could have a 22" barrel at least. I think that might be a better option weight and balance wise than going with an Element and I'd still have a 26" barrel to spin on if I wanted to use it to go shoot some ELR. If I was going to go the custom shop route then I'd just spend a little more and get a SLAM but that's not what I really want or what I want to spend.



I don't think this is the place for this debate but theres a huge thread on rokslide about it which you're probably aware of. It clearly works and there's people who live out in elk country that swear by it and people who travel to elk country who swear by it. It's not the tool for the job I'd choose but it's clearly effective and I wouldn't say it's not a right tool for the job. I've got a family friend that has gone out west almost every year since I was a kid and harvested elk, he brings two 6mm's (6-284 and 243 backup rifle) both shooting 95gr Bergers and has successfully killed elk every time and has shot some of them over 600 yards. He swears by it and I'd guess if he had animals getting away he would bring something else since he's got a pile of rifles.

On paper my 6ARC with 103ELDX doesn't dip below 1800fps until 600 yards and carries the 1600fps minimum expansion to 725 and based on shooting it at distance I would feel 100% confident putting one where it needed to go, but I wouldn't choose to use it unless it's all I had. I could even use it as my backup rifle and be confident especially since I could put 3 shots on target extremely fast, but I'd still like to hit a big animal a little harder and it's heavier than I really want to carry much. Any east coast hunting though it's 100% what I'm grabbing from varmints to white tail

I live and hunt out west, I am aware of the thread and while it would work if thats all you had I wouldn't say its ideal or a good idea if you are coming from the east coast.. I know what a non resident tag costs and bringing anything less than a 6.5 seems like it would be a gamble to me. I know plenty of people who will swear by a 6mm for elk, they probably wont tell you how many pills they pumped into their bull or cow.

 

[choprzrul]

Myself, I take along a lightweight 20" barrel rifle as a backup....then if I encounter heavy cover/trees/windbreaks I want to walk, I have a short, fast handling rifle that fits that scenario + can act as my backup rifle. Two roles essentially. Your choice of platform/caliber that works best for you.