What came first: the chicken or the egg

[5.56×250]

Interesting. I've always relied on signs like primer flattening, hard bolt, and ejector marking. Those and common sense to be somewhat conservative on max loads.
I want a chrono, but my current back yard range presents a couple problems. The main one is that I built my concrete bench inside the wood line to appease my wife's desire to not have a shooting bench next to our driveway. Its several hundred feet from a power source as well, so an electric cord would be a stretch as well. I will get one eventually , just not in time to start this particular rifle load developement. Thanks for the input.

 

[Deleted member 103481]

Modern chickens originated from various different breeds of junglefowl. Most notable is Gallus gallus, the red junglefowl. While narrowing this down is actually quite complicated their artificial selection by humans means that the chicken itself was created from various species of junglefowl by people.

While it would be easy to say there ya go, the first true chicken was created from domesticated breeding of the jungle fowl means chicken was first, that neglects the egg that chicken hatched from.

While that egg was laid by a junglefowl-ish (selective breeding would mean a large grey area here not one species doesn't just become another in a generation) bird it also means that that first chickens egg before it hatch had a flat out, full bore chicken in it. So, it must be a chicken egg. Even if a not quite totally chicken laid it.

Egg came first

 

[jasonco]

Really? Wow, I didnt know the chrono was that important. Thousands load every year without one. I did for years.
It's a fantastic tool for load development, but hardly a safety devise . Reading pressure signs is a much better way to keep your face , imho.

You seem to have all the answers and everything under control, good day sir.

 

[Frog4aday]

Interesting. I've always relied on signs like primer flattening, hard bolt, and ejector marking. Those and common sense to be somewhat conservative on max loads. I want a chrono, but my current back yard range presents a couple problems. The main one is that I built my concrete bench inside the wood line to appease my wife's desire to not have a shooting bench next to our driveway. Its several hundred feet from a power source as well, so an electric cord would be a stretch as well. I will get one eventually , just not in time to start this particular rifle load developement. Thanks for the input.

I'm confused. You don't need an electric cord for a chronograph. Mine runs off a 9 volt battery. And a good chrono, without bells and whistles, costs $99.99, which still amazes me.
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/113204/competition-electronics-prochrono-pal-chronograph

If you are reloading without a chronograph hoping a flat primer 'sign' or heavy bolt lift will save you, you are swimming in an Egyptian river and I'm sure the water feels fine, but it is just a matter of time before a croc shows up to ruin the fun.

(Chicken or egg? Gotta be the chicken first 'cause God made all the creatures to start with, right? Then they laid eggs to keep things going.)

Seating depth first with 'middle of the road' powder charge (assuming your chrono reading confirms it's the 'middle of the road' by velocity indications) then refine powder charge after you find the bullet depth 'happy place' for your gun and that bullet.

 

[5.56×250]

I'm confused. You don't need an electric cord for a chronograph. Mine runs off a 9 volt battery. And a good chrono, without bells and whistles, costs $99.99, which still amazes me.
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/113204/competition-electronics-prochrono-pal-chronograph
View attachment 137036
If you are reloading without a chronograph hoping a flat primer 'sign' or heavy bolt lift will save you, you are swimming in an Egyptian river and I'm sure the water feels fine, but it is just a matter of time before a croc shows up to ruin the fun.

(Chicken or egg? Gotta be the chicken first 'cause God made all the creatures to start with, right? Then they laid eggs to keep things going.)

Seating depth first with 'middle of the road' powder charge (assuming your chrono reading confirms it's the 'middle of the road' by velocity indications) then refine powder charge after you find the bullet depth 'happy place' for your gun and that bullet.

Chrono will need a light system to work because I'm in deep shade at my bench. Bench is far from a plug in. Chronos are inexpensive in comparison to other parts of a reloading/shooting setup, but a light system and 300 ft of extension cord adds a bit to the price. My back is SHOT OUT and by the time I get an extension cord dragged out and set up a chrono, I've used up what I have in my back for the day. If I was pushing the limits like many do on this forum for extreme range, I could see the requirement for a chrono, but I'm not pushing my loads. Maybe a chronograph has become an expected part for the modern hand loader. It's been 20 yrs since I last loaded any ammo. It was considered a luxury back then and few ever shot a round over the beams.
I appreciate all the input and I didnt mean to offend or make small any concerns or advice. Thanks to all for there contribution.
Yes, the chicken came first as God commanded. The title was to peak interest in the tread so I could gather more responses . I also thought it would lighten things up and wr could have a little fun with it in the process.

 

[Frog4aday]

<SNIPPED STUFF> If I was pushing the limits like many do on this forum for extreme range, I could see the requirement for a chrono, but I'm not pushing my loads. Maybe a chronograph has become an expected part for the modern hand loader. <SNIPPED STUFF>

There is something to be said for this statement; if you aren't pushing up to, or near maximum, I could see a person getting by without a chrono. Just follow 'the book' recipes to the letter and stay away from anything near 'maximum.' It seems most people just can't resist the temptation to 'see what she can do' and they start pushing the boundaries, which is a fool's errand without some way to monitor velocity.

Like you, when I first started reloading, I didn't have a chronograph and they were far from 'common' back in those dark ages and the one available (Oehler unit) was quite expensive and only a select few gun writers owned one. I liked my guns and my body parts so I never went past the 'middle' load indicated in the reloading manual and never went past the 'starting load' when using military brass. And it worked out fine. I got to shoot 'for cheap' and didn't harm myself or my firearms.

For anyone pushing to max (and beyond), the LEAST one should do is monitor velocities. By the time pressure signs DO show up (heavy bolt lift, significant primer flattening or piercing) a person has likely exceeded SAAMI maximums. That well built bolt action may 'hold together' under such abuse, but at some point...well, no metal can be stressed forever, can it? And for what? 60 FPS more velocity? A 100 FPS more? That's just ridiculous to me. No target will "know" the difference. If one's gun doesn't shoot 'fast enough' at TESTED book velocities, a person needs to just move up to the next more powerful 'thing', or get a longer barrel. That's just my opinion, of course. It's America. Free country. People can do what they want as long as they don't hurt others.

 

[Calvin45]

I pay careful attention to pressure signs too but they're not nearly as definite as a chronograph. Different rifle chamber tolerances, different primer cup hardness, different brass hardness, all make reading signs quite ambiguous. In a tight chamber with tough brass you can be way north of 70kpsi and not see pressure signs. Still useful though, and chronographs are not infallible either. Use them together.

 

[nicholasjohn]

I'm confused. You don't need an electric cord for a chronograph. Mine runs off a 9 volt battery. And a good chrono, without bells and whistles, costs $99.99, which still amazes me.
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/113204/competition-electronics-prochrono-pal-chronograph
View attachment 137036
If you are reloading without a chronograph hoping a flat primer 'sign' or heavy bolt lift will save you, you are swimming in an Egyptian river and I'm sure the water feels fine, but it is just a matter of time before a croc shows up to ruin the fun.

(Chicken or egg? Gotta be the chicken first 'cause God made all the creatures to start with, right? Then they laid eggs to keep things going.)

Seating depth first with 'middle of the road' powder charge (assuming your chrono reading confirms it's the 'middle of the road' by velocity indications) then refine powder charge after you find the bullet depth 'happy place' for your gun and that bullet.

I agree with your assessment on loading without a chronograph, and just bought a MagnetoSpeed to replace my Shooting Chrony. From what everybody says, it should be a lot less monkeying around. Hopefully it will turn out that way in actual practice.

Using velocity readings from the chronograph, AND other indications for validation, one can stay out of trouble.

I especially liked you "chicken & egg" answer. Best one I've seen to date.

 

[5.56×250]

I do believe what a few of you are telling me about chrono offering an extra degree of safety. It seems that alot of reloaders on here are letting the need for speed be enticed by their chronos though. They are using traditional pressure signs , or lack of , to run their speeds up and using the chrono as a bragging point for the speeds they can get beyond factory loads . Staying with book loads without a chrono might be a safer way to go for many. Without a device to lure you to higher velocities, you have no reason to push the limits.

 

[Frog4aday]

When people "brag" about exceeding 'book' velocities by 100FPS or more, all I think is, "You're not impressing me, but I'm hoping someone reading this doesn't think THEY can also just keep adding powder and getting more 'free' speed, too."

There have been times on here where someone questions a suspiciously high velocity that was posted, only to have the person 'confess' that they are shooting out of a 28" or 30" barrel, or have a special chamber with more free-bore than normal. They should have posted THAT information with their 'high velocity' brag, so people don't get the impression they can achieve the same velocity with their 22" barrel. I'm more impressed by people achieving a tight group at distance, than some higher than normal/expected velocity reading. You don't get "free" velocity - it only comes with more pressure. The two go hand in hand.

Every gun, chamber, and barrel is different. Just going with "book maximum" might be too much for THAT PERSONS gun. That's why the 'book' always advises starting lower and working up. If you get the "maximum" load velocity shown, but you are still 2 grains BELOW the listed "maximum" powder charge, then that's it for that gun. One has already reached the maximum pressure for their gun/barrel/chamber, but with two grains less powder than the book shows as 'maximum.'

But how does one know this? The chronograph is TELLING THEM THAT. And that's why a serious reloader needs to fork out the $100 and get a chronograph. I see die sets going for more than that. Everyone reloading can afford a chronograph these days. There's just no real good excuse not to have one, unlike in the 'olden days' when they just weren't accessible or affordable.

I can't wait until we can easily/cheaply attach piezoelectric strain gauges to our guns so people can start to see what pressures they are REALLY getting with those hot loads. It'll be a real eye opener, I'm sure.

 

[Calvin45]

That'd be sweet, affordable pressure testing gear. I think it would also reveal how good we have it, in that it would reveal how well most modern actions really are made when you consider how many folks do indeed routinely run overmax loads without wrecking the gun or their face.

I actually can see what 5.56x250 is saying about the possibility of low chrome numbers leading people to push harder than they would otherwise, and I have indeed seen it when I can't reach published velocity with a particular combo before pressure signs do start to show. However, I didn't push harder based on the chrono. If staying in the dark keeps people from being irresponsible it's a sad statement about their lack of wisdom and not a proof that light is unnecessary or dangerous.

I mostly agree with frog4aday but not completely. I believe there are many cases when you can exceed published figures by over 100fps with standard rifles and components without going over pressure. This is especially true in any of the metric cartridges as American load data is anemic as all get out for European cartridges (6.5x55, 7x57, 8mm mauser). Also true for cartridges that used to be loaded hotter and for unknown reasons got watered down over time - perhaps to make new cartridges look better. 270 Winchester and 300 win mag factory ammo and much load data for these two is mysteriously weaker than it used to be.

 

[Frog4aday]

<SNIPPED STUFF>I believe there are many cases when you can exceed published figures by over 100fps with standard rifles and components without going over pressure. This is especially true in any of the metric cartridges as American load data is anemic as all get out for European cartridges (6.5x55, 7x57, 8mm mauser). Also true for cartridges that used to be loaded hotter and for unknown reasons got watered down over time - perhaps to make new cartridges look better. 270 Winchester and 300 win mag factory ammo and much load data for these two is mysteriously weaker than it used to be.

You pointed out some good 'exceptions to the rule' with the 7X57 being a great one. Put that round in a modern Rem 700 and you can surely and safely go faster than the conservative 'old' load data that was used to prevent blowing up older/weaker guns. Thankfully a lot of manuals now show different data for those types of cartridges, based on what gun a person is using.

As for the 'watering down' of speed of some cartridges (like .270 Win and .300 Win Mag) I think you are making the point I am trying to make: even the factories - once better pressure testing systems came into use - realized they were loading things too hot.

I have some old loading data from the 1960s and some of those loads just blow my mind with how 'hot' they had to have been when you look at modern data in comparison. But they didn't know what they didn't know. Using the pressure testing instruments of the day (copper units of pressure, or CUP), they thought they were 'safe'. Once they switched over to piezoelectric testing systems, they could see how high pressures really were and the duration of those pressures through the entire firing cycle.

Here's an excerpt discussing the change:
CUP pressures vs. transducer pressures
Until the invention of measurement transducers in the 1960s, copper crusher unit guns were the only reliable method for estimating chamber pressures. With the availability of inexpensive, reliable transducers since the 1960s for actually making chamber pressure measurements, the industry almost universally has begun to move away from copper unit crusher guns. Transducers are capable of recording instant-by-instant pressures through the entire firing cycle.

One outcome from this transition to using measurement transducers is that SAAMI pressures in current references list nearly all pressures in PSI instead of CUP. Another result is that design margins are now better determined, which has the effect of increasing the long-term safety of firing multiple thousands of rounds in a gun. With estimates based on crusher guns, actual safety margins could never be accurately assessed, short of actually firing tens of thousands of rounds in a sample gun.

 

[nicholasjohn]

I would say that these last couple of posts are right on the mark. There is a multitude of reasons why knowing the velocity is a good thing for a hand-loader, and most are safety related. There are also dozens of reasons why one guy gets this velocity and I get that, and neither of us gets a trophy for the faster load. All rifles don't get the same velocities with the same loads, for reasons we can never know.

Chamber throats ( like one of those guys mentioned ) don't get talked about much anymore. A half-inch of "free-bore" ( like old 7 X 57's often have ) make a huge difference in how your loads are going to perform, and anemic factory loads for older cartridges like this can be safely out-done in a modern rifle. When a cartridge is loaded to be safe in an ancient Remington Rolling Block, it's probably easy to beat that velocity in a brand new Model 70 that is also chambered for the 270 Winchester or 7mm Magnum that operates at 60-some thousand PSI. But, we need to know what we are doing, and why and how it's safe to do it. The chronograph is a good tool for that. Another good thing about knowing the velocity is that if a guy is running his 7mm at modern-rifle pressure levels, he knows that he had better not let any of his handloads find their way into someone's old and worn out military relic.

On that topic, if you look at European and Scandihoovian factory loads for the 6.5 X 55, they are loaded for modern rifles. The idea is that a 140-grain .264" bullet should go a certain velocity out of a case with a certain powder capacity. Why would a cartridge with a similar capacity as, say, a 6.5 Creedmoor launch bullets 300 fps slower ? So, they load them up to that level, and everybody buys them and goes out and shoots a moose. If somebody blows up an old rifle, they tell him that he was a moron because he didn't read the flap on the box that says "don't shoot this in an old piece of junk." I guess they don't have lawyers following ambulances there like we do here in the States. It's understood that you do this at your own risk, so pay attention to what you're doing. Well, here we do it the other way, and if a guy is going to load his cartridges beyond the deliberately loaded-down levels of factory loads for that cartridge, knowing what he is doing is a very good idea. Velocity = pressure. Chronographs tell you the velocity.

 

[Calvin45]

I see what you mean about 60s era load data being hot (especially Speer).

That being said when you look at Saami max psi and case capacity there's no sensible reason beyond marketing that .300 wsm should exceed the performance of the boring old .300 win mag but it does in many factory leadings. Awareness of pressure has nothing to do with that particular discrepancy. Same goes for what's been done to the 7mm rem mag and .264 win mag. They are indeed smaller in capacity than the 26 and 28 nosler, but certainly not so much smaller to explain a 300 fps difference at equal pressure. They have indeed learned more, but they absolutely have understoked pretty much all cartridges that haven't been introduced within the last 20 years