What came first: the chicken or the egg

[Mike AVM]

I go to powder charge first, loading at magazine length. When I find the charge I like I try seating changes. Other may start at max oal for the cartridge. Each bullet change may like a different jump though and most likely will.

 

[Wolf76]

I start with the depth. Then I know 1 crucial detail is optimised for all loads.

 

[Wswim]

I usually work on charge first and then seating. Doesn't really make a huge difference but I've always found that I get to the end point a little faster. The chicken thing reminded me of a conversation overheard in a restaurant. Waitress comes to a table to take an order and asked the guy what he wanted. He said, I'm not real hungry, what do you suggest. Waitress says maybe the chicken strips for six dollars. The guy says maybe the chicken strips for six dollars and maybe it doesn't but what does that have to do with my hunger.

 

[Deviant]

Or, more to the point, what do you do first when starting a new load for a new rifle ? Do you run seating depths at a median charge weight or do you set the bullet .0XX off the lands and find your powder charge first. I dont have a chrono, so I can't hunt for a node . I'm shooting a 6.5 creed, 24" sendaro contour barrel, rem 700 action, h4350 and rl16, Berger vld 130s, cci br LR primers, if that matters. I know the vlds are a little unique on seating depth.

I only do load development after the barrel speeds up but always started with a ladder test to find a node and then do the seating depth test. Going forward instead of wasting the first 100 rounds fire forming brass and breaking in the barrel without gaining any real data I plan to to the seating depth test during this process. Not sure if its right or wrong but I will find out.

 

[brettman]

I like to run a 10 or so round pressure test with the bullet seated .020 off the lands or mag length. Normally use those for getting a rough zero on the rifle too. I can usually find out if the rifle is going to like the bullet/powder combo or not during this. I run all through a chrony which adds to the information you can get, but I did it the same way b4 I had one. After that I pick one 5% below pressure and start playing with seating depths. If it's new brass all I can do is get close until I get them all fired once.

 

[WYO300RUM]

That's the bad thing about some of us older people. You never know what we are saying, and neither do we????????

What were we talking about ?

 

[nicholasjohn]

Or, more to the point, what do you do first when starting a new load for a new rifle ? Do you run seating depths at a median charge weight or do you set the bullet .0XX off the lands and find your powder charge first. I dont have a chrono, so I can't hunt for a node . I'm shooting a 6.5 creed, 24" sendaro contour barrel, rem 700 action, h4350 and rl16, Berger vld 130s, cci br LR primers, if that matters. I know the vlds are a little unique on seating depth.

From what I've read here on this forum, it seems that more guys figure out the optimal powder charge first, and then work with the seating depth. This seems to be the preferred technique, but not by a huge margin. There are probably guys who have done it both ways without a preference, but most seem to like to work with powder type & charge first. I think doing your powder charge work first sorta "gets you in the ballpark" of the optimal pressure range, and the seating depth variation fine-tunes it - and also deals with the barrel-time.

 

[5.56×250]

I started with the powder charge today. Set the OA length .025 off the lands , which wound up at pretty close to max mag length with the Berger VLD 130s. Let my daughter pick first powder. For some reason, her 13 yr old brain thought RL16 sounded cooler than H4350 .
Loaded 6 each of 41.6 through 43.0 in .3 increments. Stopped at 43grs because the Peterson brass is supposedly thicker than most and aliant has 44gns as max charge. Gonna shoot two 3 shot groups at each weight at 100yds for groups.
We finally got a break in the dry and hot weather today and it looks like at least 3 more days of thunderstorms, so I'm on hold till the weather breaks again.

 

[jasonco]

Neither! Shouldn't be concerned about which came first, but how they get there?! Without investing in a simple chronograph, you living dangerous! It's part of your reloading kit too!

DON'T BLOW YOUR FACE OFF!

 

[5.56×250]

Neither! Shouldn't be concerned about which came first, but how they get there?! Without investing in a simple chronograph, you living dangerous! It's part of your reloading kit too!

DON'T BLOW YOUR FACE OFF!

Really? Wow, I didnt know the chrono was that important. Thousands load every year without one. I did for years.
It's a fantastic tool for load development, but hardly a safety devise . Reading pressure signs is a much better way to keep your face , imho.

 

[skipglo]

Or, more to the point, what do you do first when starting a new load for a new rifle ? Do you run seating depths at a median charge weight or do you set the bullet .0XX off the lands and find your powder charge first. I dont have a chrono, so I can't hunt for a node . I'm shooting a 6.5 creed, 24" sendaro contour barrel, rem 700 action, h4350 and rl16, Berger vld 130s, cci br LR primers, if that matters. I know the vlds are a little unique on seating depth.

H4350, fed 210 primers 41.5 gr. Powder, 140 vlds and look no further! And seating 2.795 col.

 

[zb338]

I never heard of an egg laying a chicken?

Zeke

 

[5.56×250]

I never heard of an egg laying a chicken?

Zeke

Everytime one hatches. Sorry, u walked right into that one.

 

[nicholasjohn]

Really? Wow, I didnt know the chrono was that important. Thousands load every year without one. I did for years.
It's a fantastic tool for load development, but hardly a safety devise . Reading pressure signs is a much better way to keep your face , imho.

Everybody has his own favorite way of staying out of trouble when developing loads, and I think the guy who wrote that probably prefers the chronograph. The premise is that if you're getting the velocity that is specified in the manual, it's because you're getting the same chamber pressure they got when they tested the load. If you are getting 200 fps more, then your pressure is higher ….. and may be over maximum, if you're dealing with loads on the high end of their tested range of powder charges. It might take a heavier charge to get that pressure in your rifle than it did in their pressure barrel, but if the velocity is the same, then so is the pressure. ( Their pressure barrels often have tighter chambers, and/or bores. I've read that they often test with pressure barrels cut to minimum SAAMI specs.)

Most of what I've read on this forum is about reading primers and case head markings to look for over-pressure indications. Hard bolt lift and extraction is another one that get mentioned a lot. I haven't read much here about case head expansion, which is my favorite way of checking relative pressure. I do this in conjunction with chronograph data, and I've found that if the load generates the same velocity as a factory load, it almost always expands the case head about the same as a factory load does in the same chamber. ( That amount is about .0003", measured just ahead of the extractor groove. This is a tricky place to measure, and it requires a blade micrometer to do it correctly.) Anyhow, I use .0005" as absolute maximum expansion, and .0003" for an "in the field" maximum for hunting purposes.

There's a lot of information out there about this method, and the best I've seen is in NICK HARVEY'S PRACTICAL RELOADING MANUAL. He has a whole chapter on the subject. Hodgdon also published a while back that .0005-.0006" is maximum expansion for cartridges with the 30-06 case head, and they list other numbers for smaller case heads and belted magnums. An old Hornady manual has a discussion about this, and there was also an article years ago in Handloader magazine that showed expansion vs. actual pressure testing in a powder company's lab. They showed .0005" of expansion coinciding with 60,000 PSI repeatedly.

Another thing I've found with this method is that I reach maximum long before getting into any of the traditional pressure signs I read about. I've read recently that if you've ever blown a primer, that load that generates around 70,000-75,000 PSI. Don't know if this is true, but it's pretty scary if it is. All of the methods are a little bit "by guess, by golly" and none are perfect. It's all a matter of whatever fits into your personal comfort level. The case head measurement method has kept me comfortable for a couple of decades. If somebody has a better way, I'm sure open to suggestions.