What a joke....

[wildcat]

Fifty,

I do understand the higher BC bullets are a better choice for long range shooting. I will not dispute that at all.

I guess the main point I and others left out was location. Your right, in Montana, there is more wind and this type of bullet would not be best suited for that type of shooting. However, where I live, we do not get to much wind. We need a flatter shooting bullet, that will disintegrate on impact and not continue to travel once it hits the target, due to location.

I know all about high BC bullets, I have used them on numerous occations.
However, here is my problem with them. I have shot many a coyotes at ranges from 500 to 800 yards. The problem I have been having, the bullet punches a small hole through them, and they continue to run. At that time, I was using a 6x284 with a 107grn SMK. I decided to try the 87grn V-max instead. I knew I would be giving up ballistics for killing power. Once I switched to this bullet, I noticed a treamondous difference in kill power. I will admit, I never shot this bullet past 1000 yards at coyotes, so I can't tell you how it perfromed on yotes.

Were I shoot, the wind stays pretty calm, so a high BC bullet is not necessary. I wanted something that would shoot super flat out to around 800 yards and this seems to be the ticket. Also, from all the information I have received from the guys who own the 300 WSM Varminter, they are saying it is one of the flatest shooting rifles they have owend and is perfect for varminting out to 1000 yards in good conditions.

When the wind gets real bad, I will be the first to admit, I will shoot the higher BC bullet. I am going to have a 7mm built, based of the 338 Lapua Improved case soon just for this purpouse. I wanted the 300 WSM Varminter for shots out to really around 800 yards.

Also, I do understand that people were only giving me suggestions on the build. I guess I should have said the rifle was being built for a certain purpose, for a certain range, and conditions at the location were I shoot. Maybe, that would have let othes known what I was trying to accomplish with the projet. I decided to have the 300 WSM Varminter built. It will be perfect for it's purpose. I will post the results as soon a I start shooting her.

I think we all got a little worked up, it happens. I guess it just looked like people were putting Richards 300 WSM down, and I thought it was wrong. I just think it's wrong to criticize somene when they can not defend themselves.

Anyhow, I know your post was not for me, however, I did want to say I do agree with you on ballistcs for long range shooting when it comes to unknown conditions at longer ranges.

Wildcat

 

[BountyHunter]

deleted

 

[Fiftydriver]

BH,

Alright, lets compare apples to apples, the 300 WSM against the 300 WSM.

If you can get 4000 fps with a 125 gr BT, you could easily get 3000 fps with a 208 gr A-max.

Compare these two for wind drift at 1000 yards:

125 gr BT @4000 fps................84"
208 gr A-Max @ 2900 fps..........62"

How is the light bullet better even in the same chambering compared to the heavier bullets?????

Thats over 25% less wind drift out of the same chambering just going with a heavier, higher BC bullet.

Even more interesting, lets look at retained velocity. The BT has just over 1500 fps, the A-Max has just over 100 fps more retained FPS. What does this mean, since the A-Max as a thinner jacket then the 125 gr Ballistic Tip, AND IT DOES, I have crossectioned both of them, and both are tipped bullets, the A-Max will offer more dramatic expansion given a higher retained velocity and dramatically higher retained energy.

Even by your own words, the 300 WSM is better with a high BC bullet, that is why I believe you shoot the 210 gr in yours.

You say I am the one being hard headed, hell, you tell us what you use, which agrees 100% with my way of thinking and then argue the point dead against what you personally use??????

The comment about terminal performance is moot, the 208 will expand easier then the BT espeically with higher retained velocity and energy.

I press my point because any combo you want to look at a high BC bullet will kick a short light, low BC bullet. Now that you have brought barrel life into the equation, interested in seeing how you can say my example with the 300 WSM and the 208 gr A-Max is not a better choice all around at long range.

-At least as good barrel life
-Better ballistic performance
-Better terminal performance

Please tell me I am wrong again and how????

Hell, I can take a 280 Rem, load it with the 200 gr ULD RBBT in a fast twist barrel to a VERY mild 2700 fps and still have 45" of wind drift at 1000 yards compared to nearly twice that for this 300 WSM example ran to the nuts just to get 4000 fps.

Tell me again, WHY????

THe 280 would have at least as good of a barrel life, pressures are DRAMATICALLY lower then the 300 WSM load, half the drift.

Your point does not hold water.

Can this combo be effective at 1000 yards, you bet, are there better choices if you want to excell at extreme range, there are so many to pick from its hard not to fall over something that would perform better at 1000 yards then the 125 gr BT in the 300 WSM, even at 4000 fps.

Even most loads in the 300 WSM with any bullet heavier then the 125 gr BT will outperform it.

All I was trying to do was get a new to long range shooter the best shot he could at a rifle load combo that would get him what he wanted the first time out.

Obviously, there is no talking reason with either of you, even when the numbers are right in front of you.

This is really getting tiresome.

Get the 300 WSM for crying out loud but do us all a favor, get a 1-10 twist barrel so that when you figure out any bullet with a higher BC then the 125 gr BT will outperformance it at long range, at least you have the option to use the correct bullet.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[NYLES]

Just as it turns back to a debate the BS(bh) returns!

my brass $1.00 each....Nolser.... maybe not the best but the most expensive you can get for my AM.

bullets $.044 each the expensive ones Wildcat's from Richard

The AM magnums in my opinion some of the best out there! As far as us AM shooters needing help I think we do a pretty **** good job at it on our own...Maybe you should read the 23 page post where we talk about AM's amoung ourselves...might be some humor in there but we all give and take advise and experience from each other and not start a thread with... "Im here to disagree just because I want to"......children do that not men!

Barrel burners? hhmm I can burn the barrel out of anything....who cares? I re-ring my race motor every year if it needs it or not....its just money!

WSM's shooting **** ant bullets equals wanna be long range magnums!

ES/SD **** ant bullets give **** ant numbers!

Those high BC makes perfect sense in a 1K big game rifle you said it yourself!

Vatmits is Varmits some are just alot bigger and taste better!

And there is only one shot that counts and thats the first one placed where you intended it!

NOW THAT I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION HOW ABOUT SOME MORE DEBATE AND STOP THE ****IN CONTEST! I dont have to choose a side here, but I would like you to show...make that prove your point that a fast lil bullet beats a magnum......make me a belivier...or so me some proof!


And I apollagize to all....even you BH!

 

[Fiftydriver]

Wildcat,

Please read my post to BH concerning the 300 WSM loaded with the new 208 gr A-Max.

Much lower muzzle velocity, BUT, much less wind drift, more retained velocity at 1000 yards, dramatically more energy and a tipped bullet with a thinner jacket then the 125 gr BT so it will expand more violently then the BT will at long range since you want to hammer those dogs hard.

Now thats comparing a 300 WSM to a 300 WSM but only changing the bullet.

You can certainly do what you want but I would still recommend you order that rifle from Richard with a 1-10 twist. If you can get 4000 fps in a 1-15, you will get well over 3900 fps with the same pressures in a 1-10 with the same bullet.

Then if you want to, you can try the 208 gr A-max to compare at long range. I will not predict which would perform better, even though I am pretty sure I already know. Anyway, look over the numbers, I am not just pounding on the high BC bullets because I THINK they work better, they simply do, its been proven time and again.

Any bullet in the 300 WSM with a BC higher then the 125 gr BT will out perform it at 1000 yards no matter that the velocity is a bit lower.

Just run some numbers and see for your self, I am not making this up.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[wildcat]

Bountyhunter, you made some excellent points.

My big issue with this hole post was that Richard could not defend himself from those who were critisizing him, and that's not fair in my book.

I am sure if Richard could defend himself on this topic, he would make some of these guys look like amatures. Richard is a professional gunsmith and the man has been building proven championship rifles and stocks for many years.

I talked to another fellow, who lives here in California, who just received his Richard Franklin built 300 WSM Tight Neck Varminter. He also told me he has had excellent results with this rifle for it's intended purpose, killing varmnts out to 1000 yards.

He also stated his rifle is showing no signs of unsafe pressures. He also stated the accuracy and kill power is awesome out to 1000 yards. He said his current load is producing a velocity of 4065fps, and his come up at 1000 yards is 18+ MOA.

He told me he shot a fox at 590 yards. He said the fox flew up and did two flips before landing on the ground, opened him up from his chest to his ***, and broke the fox's left back leg. This is what you want in a varmint rifle. A VLD type bullet will not give you that type of performance or show at that range. He also stated, while during a groundhog hunt, the wind was very high. He said the 125grn BT performed extreamly well in the wind.

I have now talked to 6 people who own the 300 WSM Vaminter. No!!! none of them are Richards friends, ect. The proof is continuing to show the 300 WSM is performing very well. Here is list of what I have learned so far;

1. No sticky bolts, ie high pressure issues.

2. No loose primer pockets.

3. Excellent brass life.

4. Excellent velocity between 4000fps to 4065fps with the 125grn BT and 4100fps to 4150fps with 110 V-Max.

5. Benchrest accuracy.

6. Excellent kill power.

7. Excellent ballistics out to 1000 yards with the 125grn BT.

The same six individuals have reported the best accuracy with the 125grn BT. They said the 110grn V-max is working well too, however, the 125grn BT is perfoming the best in windy conditions at longer ranges.

Richard, also indicated the 1-15 twist Bartlien Barrel is ONE of the reasons the 300 WSM has been working so well.

The VV-N550 is the recommended powder for the 300 WSM. All the guys, I have spoken with, have all said it works very well with this combo. This powder gives a 150fps to 200fps velocity advantage over the same types of powders and produces less pressure while doing it.

Richards 300 WSM Varminter is obviously a very popular and succesful long range varmint set up. He developed something, that is not popular on this board, very interesting for varmint hunters and has had MUCH success doing it. I look forward to posting the results, I am sure it will be very impressive.

Wildcat

 

[Fiftydriver]

BH,

Now I need to take issue with you on your comments about the cost of my AMs.

Not even the huge 338 AM is as costly in componant costs as you lead on that it is. Not sure where your getting your information but you are flat out wrong.

In the case of the 7mm AM. the 200 gr ULD RBBT are running around $55 per 100 bullets. Thats 55 cents each including shipping costs so your flat out wrong on that one.

Case price, $4.50 each, where in the hell do you get this from???

Even the 408 CT case can be had for just over $3 per case including shipping.

The last order of 338 Lapua brass I put in was running $1.95 each including shipping. Again, your flat out wrong.

With the barrels I am using, barrel life of my 7mm AM is nearly identical to any other large capacity 7mm or 30 cal magnum. again, you are totally uneducated about my allen magnums so please do not offer your conjered opinion on them to the public because you are wrong.

The pressure issues mainly came from varing lots of powders. Many lots of WC-872 vary in burn rate but recently the new US869 was the real problem as its burn rate is advertised as near H-870 but in fact it can be as fast burning as retumbo. Once my customers realized this, they adjusted their powder charges to bring velocities back to where I recommended, again velocity is a function of pressure and time, just like in the 300 WSM.

There has never been a case that I have not personally instructed my customers that if they are seeing any heavy bolt lift in any way that they should stay with that load. Simply is untrue and every customer I have that has asked me about is have all adjusted their loads accordingly.

What you probably read was most of my customers loading up their rifles until they just started noticing the bolt lift getting sticky and then reducing the powder charges so that this was not the case.

Please offer these posts you refer to as it sounds like there are alot of them. I would like you to offer them speicifically to me so I can review them and if I have not contacted my customers I would like to do so and say their loads are to hot but again, I am sure that has already been done.

I have said from DAY ONE, that the Allen Magnums are extreme performance big game hunting rounds, nothing more, nothing less. And those that want to use them for high volume shooting will not have barrels that last long.

That said, for those that use them accordingly as I instruct them to do, as big game rifles will have a lifetime of extreme performance even for the serious big game hunter.

That has been my stand from day one so please do not try to say I am saying anything else right now, I was simply making a fact about the anemic performance of your example at extreme range.

Again, now that we have that settled, please tell me how the 208 gr A-max in the 300 WSM does not kick the hell out of the 125 gr BT at 1000 yards in every catagory that means anything to hitting a small target at long range in unknown down range conditions and how would it not offer superior terminal performane with its higher retained velocity, more dramatic expansion and higher energy payload????????? Plus at least as good of a barrel life....

YOu want apples to apples, there you go, well I guess not, because there is no comparision between the 125 BT and the 208 A-Max at long range in the 300 WSM........

Do and believe what you boys want, in the real world, there are dramatically better choices then what your trying to prove to us.

again, look foward to how you will spin this comparision to try to say I am up in the night on this one as well? Fun debate however...

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[wildcat]

Fifty, good info.

I am going to stick with the 1-15 twist barrel. Richard has said this is the best twist for the purpose of this rifle.

I know this set up is going to work for my purpose.

Regarding the 208grn A-Max, thanks for that info too. My next rifle will be a 30/338 Lapua Improved, so I will try 208grn A-Max for sure. The 300 WSM will be used for shots out to 1000 yards. Anything past 1000 yards, I will use the 30/338 Lapua Improved with a bullet like the 208grn A-Max.

Another reason why I like the 300 WSM Varminter set up with the light bullet, the recoil issue. Like I said, I should have posted the intended purpose for this type of set up. It probably would have made it more undestandable why I like it.


Wildcat

 

[demarpaint]

Buy the rifle and report back. Sounds interesting, but defies conventional wisdom. My experience with light bullets fired fast at long range has been somewhat disappointing. I like the heavier high BC bullets myself, but as I stated this project sounds interesting. Worst case is you toss the barrel, and buy one in a 10 or 11 twist. No flame intended..........

Frank D

 

[BountyHunter]

deleted

 

[Fiftydriver]

BD,

Your comments about the bullets traveling to far after hitting the animal are pretty weak. No matter the bullet, you better have a safe back stop no matter what bullet your shooting, 50 gr 22 cal or 750 gr 50 cal.

The decision to shoot should not be any different, you better have safe back stop no matter what.

Your other comments simply show how unable you are to admit that your no more right them you think I am wrong. This is tiresome when your talking to a brick wall.

Now as far as the personal attacks calling me "Jim Jones". Not sure how things work in your area but here in the west, if we were face to face, you would have some serious explaining to do referring me to a mass murderer.... Explain your comments friend.

Your comparision of bullet prices is again laughable. What did you find the heaviest Wildcat bullet you could and take those prices. Maybe you should get the prices of the 50 cal bullets, they are alot heavier and cost more with lead prices.

As far as the bullets you list, they are totally custom bullets with no other bullets anywhere near their class of performance as far as penetration or ballistic performance.

In comparision, what does a 350 gr SMK cost, oh ya, there isn't one!!!!

Your passing into the rediculous stage here and I loose more respect for your debating ability every time you reply with more of your nonsense.

Also, I have more work then I know what to do with. I spend zero on advertising because its all word of mouth.

Customers wanting the ultimate in ballisitic performance for big game want the Allen Magnums for many reasons, they are extremely accurate, they are extremely powerful and they simply work without running them to red line.

If you want to learn more, please post a topic saying how the Allen Magnums are simply a waste of time and see what replies you get.

Anyway, your lack of ability to see things as they really are is hard for me to sit here and watch. I offer you an example that kicks the hell out of your pet project here with same or better barrel life, better expansion, better retained velocity and you still can not see it. You can lead a horse to water but.......

Anyway, you are really getting to be a waste of time. The debate started off as a good one, now its simply turned into you and Wildcat stroking each other and refusing to listen to logical comparisions that prove a point other then what you want to hear.

Good ridden to both of you, build the rifle and report back, can't wait to hear how it turns out.

Again, I am sorry this post when in this direction, I had alot of respect for you before the many posts you just posted on this topic and your lack of realistic thinking when a better option is put right in front of you comparing apples to apples and you still simply refuse to see it or even admit that it exits simply because of ego and the desire to be right no matter what info is offered against your stand.

Have a good day, this is a weak debate now, just a ****ing match is all.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[NYLES]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

ITS JUST MONEY! BUT HOW MUCH THIS PEA SHOOTER GONNA COST YA?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



Oh! and 800 round barrel life.....hhmmm....1/4 barrel life....200 well placed bullets resulting in 200 "DEAD" big game animals.....THATS ALOT OF MEAT! Or would you rather cut it to 1/10 barrel life for 80....still more big game animals than most will ever kill! Several years worth, Whats so expensive about $600 rebarrel every 10-15 years? Cheaper than a scope!
Youll spend that much in one season on gas!

Kirby Ill be ordering another soon! The biggest baddest powder burinng deer killing machine you can dream up! Nevermind you already done that!

Wildcat,
Post up those results when you get them, so me can DISCUSS goods and bads of it in a debate not a peepee contest. NO comparin apples to oranges just tell us what it will and wont do....Ill do the same soon with a new AM.....I hope you will agree that first hand experience is way better than an article in a magazine, internet or just plain ol hersay.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Wildcat and Bounty Hunter,

Alright here, I will take a risk here and step into the lions den with you. Lets look at simply varmint rounds. We have established the performance levels at 1000 yards with the 300 WSM with the 125 gr BT at a 4000 fps launch velocity. Here are the specs:

Chambering..........Wind drift..........Retained velocity.......Retained energy
300 WSM................84"...................1530 fps..................652 ft/lbs

Lets compare some other varmint rounds to these numbers:

6mm-250 with 105 gr A-Max at 3000 fps
Drift.............78"
Velocity........1465 fps
energy..........500 ft/lbs

260 Rem with 140 gr A-Max at 2850 fps
Drift.............77"
Velocity........1460 fps
Energy..........660 ft/lbs

6.5-284 with 140 gr A-Max at 3000 fps
Drift..............71"
Velocity.........1546 fps
Energy...........743 ft/lbs

Now these are but three of dozens of examples I can put up to show that the performance you are getting by red lining the 300 WSM with light bullets is not all that impressive. You can take a smaller capacity round with equal or better throat life and match or exceed the performance you are getting in from your WSM loading. Plus, with no more bullet bounce threat then you would have with the 125 gr Ballistic Tip and terminal performance on varmint critters is just as good if not better.

If we look at the lowly 6mm-250, hell even it beats the 300 WSM in wind drift and comes very close to matching its velocity. Yes the 300 has a slight edge in retained energy but recoil energy for the 300 will be dramatically higher then the 6-250. I have customers right now well past 1300 rounds on the 6mm-250s I have built them that are still sub 1/2 moa rifles with no sign of slowing down.

The mild mannered 260 Rem will pretty much match the retained velocity, improve on the retained energy and offer less wind drift as well. Again, with less recoil, longer barrel life and just as impressive bullet terminal performance on varmints.

The 6.5-284, again a very mild mannered round recoil wise, MUCH less then the 300 WSM offers better performance all around. Its amazing how you can start out 1000 fps slower but at 1000 yards actually have a retained velocity advantage. Funny how that happens when you let the bullet do the work for you instead of thinking you can flat out horse power light bullets down range to make up for ballisticly poor bullet designs.

Now you certainly can not say the 6.5-284 is to overbore for a high volume shooter, hell, its the baby of the 1000 yard br world and just about the standard for long range moderate performance varmint rounds.

Read that again, the standard for long range moderate performance varmint rounds.

Its amazing how a moderate performance varmint round will match what you feel to be the ultimate performance round at 1000 yards.

again, hard numbers, bring on the spin this time.

I was wrong, I thought this was pointless but its beginning to be fun to see how you spin things.... I have walked into your circle of specifications for rounds that this design is supposed to compete against and have offered solid numbers to show there are better down range rounds or at least equal in performance with much less recoil and muzzle blast. I always thought muzzle blast was a concern of eastern hunters, Guess everything you hear about that is not true either.

In addition to this, the 260 and 6.5-284 are also legit 1500 yard rounds, something the 300 WSM is not really good at, at least not with the little bullets. As far as super sonic velocity, the 300 WSM with its hyper velocity will reach WAY OUT to around 1325 yards with super sonic velocity.

The little 6.5-284 will reach well past 1500 yards with no worries about dropping out of super sonic velocity. Now I know you will only be shooting out to 1000 yards, never to 1001 or 1010 yards or anything like that so this may not be of concern but the way my logic works, if I am going to invest in a single high dollar rifle, why not get one that will do as much as possible as long as it does it very well and within the design specs of the chambering chosen.

Now its not sexy to say your getting 3000 fps with a 140 gr A-Max for sure. Just does not have that ring like 4000 fps does, I think that may be the issue here more then anything, espeically with Wildcat.

Its not sexy to say you are driving a 200 gr ULD RBBT to 3200 fps in my 8.5 lb lightweight 7mm AM big game rifle. I have had dozens of guys come to the shop with their latest, greatest 7mm RUMs, 300 RUMs and 30-378s saying hell, they can match that velocity or exceed it dramatically with their rifles.

Then when I take many of these guys out to the range at long range when they have problems hitting targets at long range with their wonder magnums and tell them to shoot my 20" gong at 1500 yards and see what a 10 mph wind does to their Accubond and then I let them shoot my 7mm AM in the same conditions.

They quickly realize that their rifles that are offering the same performance as my 7mm AM are getting blown 14 to 16 FEET off target.

I then let them shoot my rifle and they see that my 7mm AM with the "OVERPRICED" wildcat bullets and run to very comfortable levels in pressure compared to their hot loads, has less then half that drift(well under 7 feet) they begin to see the light on the value of ballistic efficency in bullet designs.

Then when they actually hit the gong with their rifle and then hit it with my 7mm AM, the difference in down range energy and power is truely obvious. The best 7mm RUM loads with the 160 gr Accubonds at 3300 fps will have less then 500 ft/lbs of retained energy at 1500 yards. THe monster 30-378 Wby with a 200 gr Accubond at 3300 fps, Just shy of 700 ft/lbs for that monster round.

My 7mm AM, with the "OVERPRICED" wildcat bullets, tops 1400 ft/lns of energy at that range.

Now I know these are not varmint rifles, just an example of how many shooters THINK they have the best rifle for their situation and use but in fact seldom do and are often sold the goods with high velocity pitches which seldom hold true anyway.

You can say what you want about the AMs, they do what they do and they do it well and they do it as designed and they do it as well or better then anything out there.

That can not be said for the 300 WSM when comparing it to the other long range varmint rounds.

SO while you want to compare my AMs to the other big game rounds out there, for big game hunting, go for it, they are on the top of the performance ladder in every caliber family of big game hunting.

Again, as far as true varmint rounds, the 300 WSM, loaded the way you want to, struggles to get close to the top rung and can only do this by red lining the case design in the process. Hell the examples I noted for the 6mm-250, 260 Rem and 6.5-284 are just comfortable top end loads in a 30" barrel length. Much more could be had, hell, if loaded to the pressure you are wanting to load the 300 WSM to, the comparisions would not even be close as they would far favor the smaller rounds.

Ok, your turn, lets see if you can see the logic here or if we are just in blind disagreement still.

By the way, there is no need to apologize on either side, just good debate if we can get this thread back to that playing field and stay away from personal attacks.


Kirby Allen(50)(aka Jim Jones as far as BH believes)

 

[BountyHunter]

deleted