BH,
Again, my friend, your lack of focus is amazing. You take my comments which are directed toward very specific and speicalized situations and try to compare them to the entire spectrum of shooting which is insane at best.
Again, your own words prove my point, you shoot a 186 gr bullet, care to offer us the BC information about that bullet please? is it higher then .336?
You say that the 1000 yard BR game is not a sport where you need extreme BC to be successful. THey why don't you use the 125 gr BT. Let me answer for you, because they are not consistant enough,HMM.
Lets see, consistant enough to hit small varmints at 1000 yards but not consistant enough to compete in BR where a 1/2 moa group would win most days...... Comflicting statements?
Also, thank you for telling us that the bullet used to win the HR and long range 1000 yard BR this year was the highest BC 30 cal bullet made by Berger.
Your comments about military bullets are also very interesting. A ball is a ball, weither it is lead core or mild steel core, its still a FMJ, am I wrong on that?
I would really need to see legit proof of your examples about bullets traveling that far back toward the shooter to believe it. Stands to spit in the face of physics to be honest. Now if these were steel cored bullets fired at steel targets, maybe.....
Onto Sierra and Berger. You are correct, my comments ment that every bullet made by these two makers were high BC bullets. Again, focus fella.
My comments were simply that Sierra and Berger were making the long range SMK and VLD bullets long before I ever started into long range shooting. They are not in my cult, if they were we would have 380 gr 375 bullets right now!
THe reason there are the long range SMK and the Berger VLD bullets and the Cat bullets and the Wildcat ULD RBBTs are because of market drive, that is what works, that is what shoots want because that is what works the best. Again, I am flattered by the credit you give me but again, your WRONG. Hell, even the military knows that, thats why they are now using some of the 175 gr SMK in their long range 7.62 cartridges, thanks again for your example that proves my point better then your arguing point by the way
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With these very long, high BC bullets, we can use large cased wildcat rounds, so that we can get velocity up to good levels. My AM designs were designed to offer the highest level of performance at long range and work in a 3200 to 3300 fps velocity window. EVERY ONE OF THEM DOES THAT except the 338 AM which will drive things faster even still. They do not achieve these velocity goals because I took a marginally sized case and red lined it to meet my goals. I took an case that was larger then really needed so I could load then to modern top end chamber pressures with good case life. AGAIN, EVERY ONE OF THEM DO THIS EASILY.
I like this comment from you as well.
As for the cult, quite simple, has to do with the blind allegience to the leader who preaches one gospel (according to him) and no one is allowed to stray from that gospel. Nothing personal, just the way you present the info that the absolute only bullet is the high BC and heavy bullet.
Lets see, the entire debate started from someone saying that they were using a 300 WSM loaded with a 125 gr BT to 4000 fps. When it was suggested that a higher BC bullet would offer more ballistic performance down range, all hell broke loose, who is the cult leader in this case???
With my 270 Allen Magnums, I offer load data for all bullets from 130 gr Ballistic Tip(Which by the way would make the 300 WSM/125 gr BT load look like a dead cat ballistically!!!), to the 140 gr BT, 140 gr Accubond and up to the 169.5 gr ULD RBBT and 195 gr ULD RBBT. I do not tell my customers what to use.
In the 7mm AM, I offer load data for all bullets from the 120 gr Ballistic Tip, to the 140 gr Accubonds, to the 160 gr Accubonds, to the 175 gr SMK to the 180 gr Bergers to the 200 gr ULD RBBTs. Again, I do not tell my customers what to use, AGAIN.
In my 338 AM, I recommend the 300 gr SMK. Why not the 225 gr Accubond, because it is not heavy enough to provide the resistance needed to get consistant ignition and powder burns for consistant velocity in a chambering that has 150 grain powder charges. Do you have experience with 338 cal rounds with 150 gr powder charges? Oh, so again, your unqualified to make comments like you are about what I recommend to my customers and why I recommend what I do to my customers, right!!!
All of my customers, ask me what I use. I tell them what I have tested, I give them the results for my testing, freely, as I will anyone that asks, even those that like to hammer me. I let my customers see what works best from actual testing and comparision with other chambering, bullets and loads, and they they make up their own minds because my customers are some of the most educated, most experienced and most dedicated long range hunters in the world and they want the very best in equipment and also equipment that will give them that extra edge of performance in the field when not all conditions are know.
You insult my customers when you call them blind fallowers and it only goes to show your total ignorance in its blinding glory.
If I was using velocity as a saled ploy, why would I not advertise the 257 Allen Magnum as a 4100 fps chambering with a 100 gr TSX bullet?
Why would I not advertise the 6.5mm Allen Magnum as a 4200 fps chambering with a 100 gr Ballistic Tip?
Why would I not advertise the 270 Allen Magnum as a 3900 fps chambering with a 130 gr Ballistic tip?
Why would I not advertise the 7mm AM as a 4000 fps round with a 120 gr Ballistic Tip?
Why would I not advertise the 300 AX as a 4000 fps round with a 125 gr Ballistic Tip(that by the way is realistic pressure to capacity ratio).
Why would I not advertise the 338 AX as a 3800 fps round with the 160 gr Barnes X?
Why would I not recommend the 338 AM as a 3900 fps round with a 200 gr Ballistic Tip?
WHY, because I have tested every one of these loads. In everything but the 338 AM, the loads are very accurate out of my rifles out to 500 yards and beyond. In every case with the loads above, they all printed at or under 1/2 moa average.
WHY DO I recommend the following:
257 AM with 156 gr ULD RBBT at 3300 fps
6.5mm AM with 168 gr ULD RBBT at 3200 fps
270 AM with 169.5 gr ULDL RBBT at 3300 fps
7mm AM with 200 gr ULD RBBT at 3300 fps
300 AX with 240 gr SMK at 3200 fps
338 AX with 300 gr SMK at 2950 fps
338 AM with 300 gr SMK at 3350 fps
The reason why, because in every case, while the lighter bullets shot extremely well, easily meeting my accuracy requirements, these moderate velocity loads Shot DRAMATICALLY Better at long range, When I tested them head to head, these loads averaged measureably smaller groups then the light hyper velocity bullets. In many cases, 1/4 to 1/5 moa groups were not uncommon. Yes, that means around 1" groups at 500 yards. That is not the norm but it happens enough for it not to suprise me all that much anymore.
I give my customers this data, for all loads and bullets, they run all the numbers, generally for months before ordering rifles and prove to themselves on paper and research first what "SHOULD" work best for them for what they want to do.
I do not build rifles to suit my needs, I build rifles to suit my customers.
Your comments are totally insulting to me and my customers and your personal attachs simply show you have nothing solid to base your argument on any more.
Funny thing about my AMs. They have some extreme performance, they have some faults but they are what they are and they do what they are said to do. That is why my list of customers just keeps going.
I do not and have never hyped the AM chamberings. If anything I am overly conservative with my predictions and actual load development. I simply came onto LRH and told guys what I wanted to do with my wildcats. Many had similiar interests and instead of spending their own money on reamers, dies and research, they ordered rifles from me that did what they wanted.
There has been a huge group of shooters posting results on their AMs as well as other chamberings inrifles I have built for them.
THIS IS LONG RANGE HUNTING, my Allen Magnums are LONG RANGE HUNTING WILDCATS. Would you rather I go over to 24 hour camp fire and talk about them???? How about I head over to snipers hide and chat to the 223 and 308 boys about my 338 AM that burns 150 grains of powder and gets 3400 fps with a 300 gr SMK.
YOu go where like mined folks what to hear about your ideas, nothing more and nothing less...
All I do is offer data, solid data mind you. I say that because my customers are posting the same results or better results then I am. Your ignorance about me and my attitude toward anyone with differning opinions then mine are simply unfounded in all ways.
I answer any question posted on LRH that I have experience with. If I do not have experience with a question, I DO NOT POST. I have been posting on LRH since long before I started my company and was well estabilished before my first rifle was sent out the door.
When I see someone that is about to do something that I know can be done better a different way and that person asks for opinions, I offer my opinion, and so did dozens of other experienced shooters and hunters.
Just because you think you can bully your opinion into being factually correct it not the case. I know what I know, I know my arguement is factually based and solid and I will not back down from that because the numbers prove me right EVERY TIME.
Can WIldcat do what he wants, thank god yes, hope he does. In the original post on this topic, he wanted opinions, he got them, overwhelmingly against this idea as there were much better ways to get what he wanted to accomplish. He seemingly changed his mind and then comed back on here screaming and hollering that I am a hyprocrit because I disagree with him. Then you jump in and personally attach me and more importantly my customers with comments that you have no idea at all what your talking about.
We all offered solid factual real world experience to try to help Wildcat make the best decision to accomplish his stated goals. He did not listen to us and went another direction, thats fine. Get the rifle made, have the stones to post your results.
If he posts tight groups at 1000 yards with his new rifle with 4000 fps measured velocities, how can anyone disagree with that. We cant and no one will. But to ask for our opinion and then get personal is what I will not stand for.
This is not my web sight, it is Lens. PERIOD. I get sick of those of you that say its the Kirby Allen Web page. That is again an insult to the thousands of shooters that post information and offer advice on LRH. YOu insult us all everytime you make that idiotic comment.
If I were talking about my 300 Varminter, doing 4000 fps with a 125 gr BT would you be so ****ed. NOPE, because you would be telling me that a higher BC bullet would offer me more performance down range in unknown conditions. YOu have a chip on your shoulder about me, my company, my wildcats and my customers for some reason. I would really like to know what your issues with me are honestly????
As far as having a beer with you, hell from the posts you have written, I would see no reason to get within a state of you. Seems you have some pent up rage issues and you would like to unleash them.
I do not understand why an educated debate has turned so personal against me and my customers. Bring it on toward me, I will stand behind anything I have said, written or typed but leave my customers out of it please. If I make a mistake, I will own up to that instantly and have on this board.
But I am also going to talk about my successes as well. If There were only one 270 AM, or 7mm AM or 338 AM on the planet and they were in my gun safe, you would not squeak a word like you have been, but because others see value in them as well and want them, that seems to rub you the wrong way.
I repeat my original point on the topic, it is easier to hit small targets at 1000 yards in unknown down range conditions with a high BC bullet then with a hyper velocity low BC bullet.
YOu have yet to offer anything to prove that comment wrong.
Kirby Allen(50)
WHy don't you post the comment about my blind customers over on the Allen Magnum shooters group post and see how they like being called mindless blind followers........
You really suprised me BH, I thought I knew you better, I guess I can at least say not I really do know you.
