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What a joke....
- Thread starter bailey1474
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Slopeshunter
Well-Known Member
Maybe I'm wrong, but my impression was that the "what a joke" refered to the reference to 0.162" at 100 yards = 1.62" at 1000 yards?
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
BH,
Your comments about jacketed bullets and RPMs does have some trueth but not concerning the 125 gr Ballistic Tip or any other BT made.
The Ballistic Tips have an extremely heavy jacket, even the varmint versions.
I have tried to dust many BTs and have yet to be able to do it and I have pushed them as hard as anyone out there.
I have driven the 50 gr Ballistic tip to 4310 fps in one of my 22-6mm AI rifles. Accuracy was 0.322" ctc for five three shot groups. The twist in that barrel was a 1-8 3 groove, which is known to be hard on bullets.
I have also shot the 100 gr 25 cal BT to 4100 to 4150 fps in several of my 257 Allen Magnums with 30" barrels. The twists in those barrels were 1-7 3 grooves and a 1-8 5 groove. Accuracy at 100 yards was well under 1/2 moa in all three test rifles.
I have also loaded the 120 gr BT to 3950 fps in my 7mm AM with a 30" barrel with a 1-7 3 groove barrel. Again, 100 yard accuracy average was slightly under 1/2 moa.
So why not use these loads at long range???? Velocity spread was no where near as tight as what I was able to get with the heavier bullets. The loads that did offer good ES still would not compete accuracy wise at 500 yards. They were still shooting 1/2 moa in all mentioned cases at 500 yards but the heavier bullets all averaged from 1/3 to 1/5 moa.
Your comment about this being a varmint load and it should not be compared to big game loads. That is not a real valid point. The reason, in a 30 cal bore, any solid hit on a varmint size animal will easily ancher it instantly. If we were talking about smaller caliber varmint rounds you would have a real point but not when talking about a bullet that is already 30 cal and targeting thin skinned, lightweight varmint critters. Any solid hit will end the fight instantly.
The reason I bring this point up, hitting that small target is the critical thing and the heavier, higher BC bullets will make that easiler.
They will also allow this without having to drive a light bullet to redline or more to get these results.
Kirby Allen(50)
Your comments about jacketed bullets and RPMs does have some trueth but not concerning the 125 gr Ballistic Tip or any other BT made.
The Ballistic Tips have an extremely heavy jacket, even the varmint versions.
I have tried to dust many BTs and have yet to be able to do it and I have pushed them as hard as anyone out there.
I have driven the 50 gr Ballistic tip to 4310 fps in one of my 22-6mm AI rifles. Accuracy was 0.322" ctc for five three shot groups. The twist in that barrel was a 1-8 3 groove, which is known to be hard on bullets.
I have also shot the 100 gr 25 cal BT to 4100 to 4150 fps in several of my 257 Allen Magnums with 30" barrels. The twists in those barrels were 1-7 3 grooves and a 1-8 5 groove. Accuracy at 100 yards was well under 1/2 moa in all three test rifles.
I have also loaded the 120 gr BT to 3950 fps in my 7mm AM with a 30" barrel with a 1-7 3 groove barrel. Again, 100 yard accuracy average was slightly under 1/2 moa.
So why not use these loads at long range???? Velocity spread was no where near as tight as what I was able to get with the heavier bullets. The loads that did offer good ES still would not compete accuracy wise at 500 yards. They were still shooting 1/2 moa in all mentioned cases at 500 yards but the heavier bullets all averaged from 1/3 to 1/5 moa.
Your comment about this being a varmint load and it should not be compared to big game loads. That is not a real valid point. The reason, in a 30 cal bore, any solid hit on a varmint size animal will easily ancher it instantly. If we were talking about smaller caliber varmint rounds you would have a real point but not when talking about a bullet that is already 30 cal and targeting thin skinned, lightweight varmint critters. Any solid hit will end the fight instantly.
The reason I bring this point up, hitting that small target is the critical thing and the heavier, higher BC bullets will make that easiler.
They will also allow this without having to drive a light bullet to redline or more to get these results.
Kirby Allen(50)
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Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Wildcat,
I am sorry but I do not see where you are calling me out.''
Basic firearm safety, know your target and know what is behind your target. if there is not a save back stop, YOU DO NOT SHOOT!!!!!
There is no comment about "if your using a big bullet, you have to be more careful"
Your comment is simply rediculous that I am promoting unsafe conditions because of the bullets my rifles shoot. It almost hard to have this discussion and keep it on a respectable level because your comments and arguements are nothing short of laughable to behonest.
EVERY rifle made by me for my Allen Magnums are designed specifically to be used with the load data I offer and are perfectly safe used in that way. Controling what the customer points the rifle as is hardly in my control.
Every rifle is proven safe with these DANGEROUS BULLETS you refer to.
You honestly think a varmint is going to stop a 125 gr BT at its terminal velocity at 1000 yards. PLEASE.
Again, your arguement is simply laughable and not worth even defending against.
If that is your idea of calling me out, your on pretty weak ground. Firearm safety lies in the shooter of the rifle and thats where the buck stops, certainly you understand this, if not, well..........
Again, calling my rifles unsafe in anyway is again an insult to me by you. More then anything, its a totally uneducated comment on your part.
Again, my only comment concerning this topic from the start is that it is not responsible to say that the 300 WSM is a 4000 fps level round when that is certainly not a safe level to be loading it to in a factory rifle and many out there will read this and read what they want to read and try to see how hard they can push their rifles, even if they can not get 4000 fps they will try to get as much as they can and that is not safe.
If you can not at least agree to this potential danger and its existance, then yourso closed off to open debate that this has gone far past its useful range if discussion.
At least BD is bringing solid practical points to this debate and several very good points, they are still debateable but both sides have merit.
Your comments are simply not worth discussing.
My comments yourefer to about courage in no way said you did not have courage. It said you should have the courage to do what you want, report the results and you will get respect. That was a general comment in the way I live my life. If you think it will work for you, good, if not so be it.
Again, next time you refer to my products to my customers as unsafe you had better have some solid data to offer because in this world, saying that is about as close to slander as you can get.
Before you say its no different then what I am saying about this issue, BULL, no expert in the world would say its common for a 300 WSM to be able to produce 4000 fps with a 125 gr bullet. And with the fact that there are so many factory rifles out there in this same chambering that could chamber and shoot these same loads, it is not a wise thing to do, again in my opinion.
This is getting tiresome.
Kirby Allen(50)
I am sorry but I do not see where you are calling me out.''
Basic firearm safety, know your target and know what is behind your target. if there is not a save back stop, YOU DO NOT SHOOT!!!!!
There is no comment about "if your using a big bullet, you have to be more careful"
Your comment is simply rediculous that I am promoting unsafe conditions because of the bullets my rifles shoot. It almost hard to have this discussion and keep it on a respectable level because your comments and arguements are nothing short of laughable to behonest.
EVERY rifle made by me for my Allen Magnums are designed specifically to be used with the load data I offer and are perfectly safe used in that way. Controling what the customer points the rifle as is hardly in my control.
Every rifle is proven safe with these DANGEROUS BULLETS you refer to.
You honestly think a varmint is going to stop a 125 gr BT at its terminal velocity at 1000 yards. PLEASE.
Again, your arguement is simply laughable and not worth even defending against.
If that is your idea of calling me out, your on pretty weak ground. Firearm safety lies in the shooter of the rifle and thats where the buck stops, certainly you understand this, if not, well..........
Again, calling my rifles unsafe in anyway is again an insult to me by you. More then anything, its a totally uneducated comment on your part.
Again, my only comment concerning this topic from the start is that it is not responsible to say that the 300 WSM is a 4000 fps level round when that is certainly not a safe level to be loading it to in a factory rifle and many out there will read this and read what they want to read and try to see how hard they can push their rifles, even if they can not get 4000 fps they will try to get as much as they can and that is not safe.
If you can not at least agree to this potential danger and its existance, then yourso closed off to open debate that this has gone far past its useful range if discussion.
At least BD is bringing solid practical points to this debate and several very good points, they are still debateable but both sides have merit.
Your comments are simply not worth discussing.
My comments yourefer to about courage in no way said you did not have courage. It said you should have the courage to do what you want, report the results and you will get respect. That was a general comment in the way I live my life. If you think it will work for you, good, if not so be it.
Again, next time you refer to my products to my customers as unsafe you had better have some solid data to offer because in this world, saying that is about as close to slander as you can get.
Before you say its no different then what I am saying about this issue, BULL, no expert in the world would say its common for a 300 WSM to be able to produce 4000 fps with a 125 gr bullet. And with the fact that there are so many factory rifles out there in this same chambering that could chamber and shoot these same loads, it is not a wise thing to do, again in my opinion.
This is getting tiresome.
Kirby Allen(50)
Wildcat posted
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcat
It has been proven his set up is shooting the 125grn BT at 4000fps and very very accurate out to 1000 yards.
Wildcat
And I asked
Can you post the proof?
Asking to see the proof is not calling any body a liar and for you to claim as much shows your lack of reasoning ability...
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcat
It has been proven his set up is shooting the 125grn BT at 4000fps and very very accurate out to 1000 yards.
Wildcat
And I asked
Can you post the proof?
Asking to see the proof is not calling any body a liar and for you to claim as much shows your lack of reasoning ability...
Fifty,
Before I go on with this post, I am going to say this, Kirby is a a very professional gunsmith, and I know he would never promote anything unsafe.
However, I am not going to say I am wrong on this issue. I will continue to debate as best I can. Trust me, I know others are better at it than I.
Here we go,
Fifty, I never put you down or said you were promoting anything unsafe.
I know you would never do that. However, you must agree there are idiots out there that might use that rifle in the wrong conditions, right. Your not going to know what someone is doing with one of your rifles when it leaves your shop.
My arguement does have some merit wether you like it or not. I wll agree with you, It might not be the best argument. I am not a professional rifle smith or ballistics expert. My BA and Masters degree is in something else. So , I guess I am not on the same playing feild when it comes to knowledge about ballistics, ect. I know enough to shoot very well.
You said what Richard was doing was promoting something unsafe to the public, can you show me and others the proof. It looks like BH has already proven you and others wrong about the pressure and velocity issue.
Every rifle Richard designs or promotes is promoted in the right way, and if used the way Richard suggests, then he is promoting a safe product too.
Also, if your going to tell people on this board that Richard is promoting something unsafe, then you better have proof too! So, as you say, I am slandering you, than aren't you doing the same thing to Richard.
Regarding the courage comment, Ok maybe I got a little too worked up about it. However, it seemed to me as though you were calling me out. Anyhow, thats cool, no big deal.
As I mentioned, I am out of my league when it comes to this type of stuff. However, it seems like BH has much info on this matter and has continued to back his statments up much better than I. Why don't you debate him on this, I would love to see how it developes.
Once again, I never said you were intentionally promoting unsafe products to your customers. I will apoplogize If it looked that way. I, in NO WAY was suggesting that. However, admit that you were wrong in saying that Richard Franklin was promoting an unsafe product when you don't have the proof to back up your claims.
Once again Kirby, I apologize if it looked like I was saying you were promoting an unsafe product, I know you are a professional. I was trying to defend Richard, because he was being slandered IMO, and he couldn't defend himself on this site.
Your right about idiots trying to shoot the 300 WSM at high velocities with the wrong components, I can see where that is unsafe. However, Richard promotes his 300 WSM Varminter correctly. He clearly states, in order for you to get the performance he is suggesting, you must use the proper Action, barrel twist rate, brass, powder, ect. He also states, his 300 WSM Varminter will not perform the same with a Remington 700 action, ect.
Kirby, really, I am sorry if it looked like I was saying you promoted an unsafe product. I should have used a better analogy to proof my point.
However, I would hope you would apopligize to Richard for your comments regarding him promoting an unsafe product.
Wildcat
Before I go on with this post, I am going to say this, Kirby is a a very professional gunsmith, and I know he would never promote anything unsafe.
However, I am not going to say I am wrong on this issue. I will continue to debate as best I can. Trust me, I know others are better at it than I.
Here we go,
Fifty, I never put you down or said you were promoting anything unsafe.
I know you would never do that. However, you must agree there are idiots out there that might use that rifle in the wrong conditions, right. Your not going to know what someone is doing with one of your rifles when it leaves your shop.
My arguement does have some merit wether you like it or not. I wll agree with you, It might not be the best argument. I am not a professional rifle smith or ballistics expert. My BA and Masters degree is in something else. So , I guess I am not on the same playing feild when it comes to knowledge about ballistics, ect. I know enough to shoot very well.
You said what Richard was doing was promoting something unsafe to the public, can you show me and others the proof. It looks like BH has already proven you and others wrong about the pressure and velocity issue.
Every rifle Richard designs or promotes is promoted in the right way, and if used the way Richard suggests, then he is promoting a safe product too.
Also, if your going to tell people on this board that Richard is promoting something unsafe, then you better have proof too! So, as you say, I am slandering you, than aren't you doing the same thing to Richard.
Regarding the courage comment, Ok maybe I got a little too worked up about it. However, it seemed to me as though you were calling me out. Anyhow, thats cool, no big deal.
As I mentioned, I am out of my league when it comes to this type of stuff. However, it seems like BH has much info on this matter and has continued to back his statments up much better than I. Why don't you debate him on this, I would love to see how it developes.
Once again, I never said you were intentionally promoting unsafe products to your customers. I will apoplogize If it looked that way. I, in NO WAY was suggesting that. However, admit that you were wrong in saying that Richard Franklin was promoting an unsafe product when you don't have the proof to back up your claims.
Once again Kirby, I apologize if it looked like I was saying you were promoting an unsafe product, I know you are a professional. I was trying to defend Richard, because he was being slandered IMO, and he couldn't defend himself on this site.
Your right about idiots trying to shoot the 300 WSM at high velocities with the wrong components, I can see where that is unsafe. However, Richard promotes his 300 WSM Varminter correctly. He clearly states, in order for you to get the performance he is suggesting, you must use the proper Action, barrel twist rate, brass, powder, ect. He also states, his 300 WSM Varminter will not perform the same with a Remington 700 action, ect.
Kirby, really, I am sorry if it looked like I was saying you promoted an unsafe product. I should have used a better analogy to proof my point.
However, I would hope you would apopligize to Richard for your comments regarding him promoting an unsafe product.
Wildcat
JWP475, you are the one that started this post with the title "What a joke". You are calling Richard a Liar just by your title. Richard has shown the following proof with his 300 WSM Varminter set up:
1. He is getting 4000fps with the 125grn BT.
2. He is getting excellent accuracy. I have seen the photos of the groups and video where he shot an unbeliveable group at 700 yards with the 300 WSM Varminter.
3. He is not seeing any pressure signs as long as the components are correct.
4. The brass is performing and handling the pressures well. Richard also stated the primer pockets are staying tight and he is getting many firings out of the cases.
5. Richard also stated he has built 27 300 WSM Varminters in the last year. All of the customers are reporting unbelievable results with this set up.
6. Richard has been building rifles for many years. I don't think he would lie to accurateshooter.com about one of his rifles and the peformance of the set up.
7. Richard has an excellent reputation for building top notch rifles.
This is all the proof I need, what else do you want.
Wildcat
1. He is getting 4000fps with the 125grn BT.
2. He is getting excellent accuracy. I have seen the photos of the groups and video where he shot an unbeliveable group at 700 yards with the 300 WSM Varminter.
3. He is not seeing any pressure signs as long as the components are correct.
4. The brass is performing and handling the pressures well. Richard also stated the primer pockets are staying tight and he is getting many firings out of the cases.
5. Richard also stated he has built 27 300 WSM Varminters in the last year. All of the customers are reporting unbelievable results with this set up.
6. Richard has been building rifles for many years. I don't think he would lie to accurateshooter.com about one of his rifles and the peformance of the set up.
7. Richard has an excellent reputation for building top notch rifles.
This is all the proof I need, what else do you want.
Wildcat
Here is some info on Richards 300 WSM Varminter. He just e-mailed me some information concerning this topic.
He informed me the Norma 300 WSM Brass is performing very well. He also stated to trim the new brass to about .010, buy doing this it helps keep the pressures down. He also stated that once the new brass has been trimed down at .010, you will not have to trim for a while.
Also, I have talked to a couple of guys who just used their 300 WSM Varminter for the first time this year. They all said they are having no pressrure problems at all.
They also said the rifle has amazing accuracy and kill power out to 1000 yards. One of the guys said, it was unbelievable to watch the 125grn BT hit a Pdog at 800 yards, the destruction of the Pdog was unbelievable. Both fellows said they couldn't believe how flat the bullet shot out to 1000 yards and that the bullet performed well even in the windy conditions.
The same guys have told me they are getting many firings with the Norma Brass and the primer pockets are stayng tight. They stated the Bartlien Barrles, with 1-15 twist, are performing very well.
Richard recommends the 300 WSM Varminter be fitted with the Bartlien barrel, he said they are giving the most consistant velocities and accuracy. He stated his highest velocity with the 300 WSM Varminter was 4025fps with 125grn BT.
As I mentioned before, Richard told me he built about 27, 300 WSM Varminters for 2007. He also informed me, he currently has 30 orders for the 300 WSM Vaminters for 2008.
I was very lucky to get on the list for the 2008 build. Richard has been hunting groundhogs for years, and he informed me the 300 WSM Varminter is his favorite varmint hunting rig for shots out to 1000 yards.
I think all the proof anyone needs to know is, Richard Franklins 300 WSM tight neck Varminter was featured in 6mmBr. com on Accurateshooter.com.
I would say that is strong proof that the man knows what he is doing if these forums are featuring him and his creation. They must know Richard is telling the truth and that his 300 WSM Varminter is performing very well. I am sure they would have not featured this type of info if they thought it was unsafe.
Wildcat
He informed me the Norma 300 WSM Brass is performing very well. He also stated to trim the new brass to about .010, buy doing this it helps keep the pressures down. He also stated that once the new brass has been trimed down at .010, you will not have to trim for a while.
Also, I have talked to a couple of guys who just used their 300 WSM Varminter for the first time this year. They all said they are having no pressrure problems at all.
They also said the rifle has amazing accuracy and kill power out to 1000 yards. One of the guys said, it was unbelievable to watch the 125grn BT hit a Pdog at 800 yards, the destruction of the Pdog was unbelievable. Both fellows said they couldn't believe how flat the bullet shot out to 1000 yards and that the bullet performed well even in the windy conditions.
The same guys have told me they are getting many firings with the Norma Brass and the primer pockets are stayng tight. They stated the Bartlien Barrles, with 1-15 twist, are performing very well.
Richard recommends the 300 WSM Varminter be fitted with the Bartlien barrel, he said they are giving the most consistant velocities and accuracy. He stated his highest velocity with the 300 WSM Varminter was 4025fps with 125grn BT.
As I mentioned before, Richard told me he built about 27, 300 WSM Varminters for 2007. He also informed me, he currently has 30 orders for the 300 WSM Vaminters for 2008.
I was very lucky to get on the list for the 2008 build. Richard has been hunting groundhogs for years, and he informed me the 300 WSM Varminter is his favorite varmint hunting rig for shots out to 1000 yards.
I think all the proof anyone needs to know is, Richard Franklins 300 WSM tight neck Varminter was featured in 6mmBr. com on Accurateshooter.com.
I would say that is strong proof that the man knows what he is doing if these forums are featuring him and his creation. They must know Richard is telling the truth and that his 300 WSM Varminter is performing very well. I am sure they would have not featured this type of info if they thought it was unsafe.
Wildcat
Why do you want to stste BS in ths first line of your post??? Can you read and if you can are you able to comprehend???
Look ar the POST ORIGINATOR IT I S NOT ME... IT IS BAILELY 1474
"What a joke.... ( 1 2 3)
bailey1474"
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The above quote shows the LACK OF VALIDITY of anything that you post... You CAN"T EVEN GET THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS POST CORRECT.....
jwp475, I apoloogize for saying you started the post.
Yes, I can read very well, and you are calling Richard a Liar. Can you apologize like I did to you.
Also, of course there is pressure you idiot, I know that.
Why don't you debate Bountyhunter, he has been proving you wrong the hole time. I think calling someone a liar, when they can't defend themselves, is BS BS BS. At least you could apoplogize.
Wildcat
Yes, I can read very well, and you are calling Richard a Liar. Can you apologize like I did to you.
Also, of course there is pressure you idiot, I know that.
Why don't you debate Bountyhunter, he has been proving you wrong the hole time. I think calling someone a liar, when they can't defend themselves, is BS BS BS. At least you could apoplogize.
Wildcat
First off you can't read because I haven't called any body a liar...I have an opion and that is it until there is any pressure testing done that is all that any body has is an opion...
I don't want to debate anyone about this if you stop making post accussing me of calling the man a liar,I will not respond to this thread at all....
Again I have an opion and that is it in no way is my opion calling any one a liar.....If my opion is proven wrong then I will have learned something new until then Leave me out of this Bull Sh!t
No where in this entire thread did I say that he did not get 4000 FPS with the 300 WSM and 125 grain bullets (I assume that the velocity was chron'ed therefore have not questioned the velocity)....NOWHERE.....WHat I said was that I do not think that this velocity is possiable without being above the 65,000 PSI thress hold...ONCE AGAIN THIS IS MY OPION...Without pressure testing my opion and anyone dissagreeing with my opion is still just an opion.....NOTHING MORE THAN AN OPION... Can you grasp that???
Since you want one of these so bad I urge you to get it............
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Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Bounty Hunter,
Alright, lets look at my main point here, For the sake of simplifying this debate, lets say you can get 4000 fps with a 125 gr 30 cal BT out a speicific rifle. That will take that out of the debate.
So we have a 4000 fps 125 gr Ballistis Tip which is being said to have extreme varminting performance at long range, no, at 1000 yards.
My main point throughout the entire debate has been, "It is far easier to hit a small target at long range with a high BC bullet at moderate velocity then with a lightweight, hyper velocity bullet when the down range conditions are unknow."
THis is not opinion, this is fact. Let me offer some numbers.
Say you see a chuck sitting on a nice rock sunning himself at a measured 1000 yards. At your shooting location, you can not feel any wind at all but you notice that there is some wind down range at the target and estimate it at 10 mph.
I will list the windage needed for each round and you can decide for your self which is better in each situation as far as hitting your target:THis is comparing a 300 WSM/125 gr BT @ 4000 fps to a 7mm RUM/120 gr BT @3800 fps and a 7mm AM/200 gr ULD RBBT at 3350
Chambering..................................Wind drift
300 WSM......................................84"
7mm RUM......................................75"
7mm AM........................................33"
Now if your estimate of the wind is dead on you will hit with each chambering. If you are off, you will miss, to what degree you will miss will be determined by the effect the wind has on each bullet. Obviously the 300 WSM is pretty anemic in the wind at 1K.
Lets look at retained velocity which is what makes a bullet expand. Now I have tested the Ballistic Tips for expansion down to as low as 1300 fps at extended ranges. Anything mych under 1600 fps will not produce full expansion with the 30 cal BT or any other BT unless its a varmint BT which the 125 gr BT is not I believe. ANyway, lets look at the retained velocity:
Chambering................................Retained velocity at 1K
300 WSM....................................1530 fps
7mm RUM....................................1630 fps
7mm AM......................................2310 fps
Again, the 300 is on the bottom of the pile and at the bottom end of getting any bullet expansion at all.
Bullet drop is not a concern to me as its easy and predictable to comp for. Bullet energy is also not a huge concern for varmint hunting but it is critical in making a bullet perform on varmint type animals. No velocity and no retained energy means no bullet expansion.
So while if you compare this 300 WSM combo to say a 22-250 with a 55 gr Ballistic Tip at 1000 yards, yes you have an impressive performing round in comparision.
If you compare it to a real long range rifle, there is simply no comparision in any way.
I am honestly suprised that he decided to make the 300 WSM his baby. The 7mm WSM with the 120 gr Ballistic Tip would have been a much more impressive number at long range offering same velocity potential in comparision to the 300 WSM, at least within 100 fps with a much better BC for better down range numbers.
Again, taking away the arguement that 4000 fps is a wise thing to do in a WSM, and getting back to the point in hand, hitting small targets at extended range in unknown down range conditions, the combo you two are talking about is a weak performer compared to legit long range chamberings loaded for the task at hand.
You can say its a varmint rifle all you want, fact is hitting the target is the only thing that matters and that is much easier with a higher BC bullet even if it is driven to dramatically slower velocity. The numbers do not blow smoke, neither does field testing which is where the real proof comes from.
I do not know where this smith is based in, but here in Montana, if you want to shoot 1000 yards, you better have a wind beater in your hands and 300 WSM is certainly not that in any way.
It is not hard at all to get a conventional round to cut the 300 WSM/4000 fps/125 gr BT combos wind drift at least in half with the use of the proper bullets.
This was what everyone was trying to tell Wildcat when he asked over and over about what would be best for varminting at long range.
Forget about bullet performance, its hitting the target that is critical, any bullet larger then 270 will easily and instantly stop a varmint even the size of a yote if the bullet hit the right spot.
Anyway, my main point stands, its just easier to hit a small target down range in unknown shooting conditions with high BC bullets. IF you were building a rifle for that speicfic purpose, why would you build a rifle that would simply "work" when you could build a rifle that would excell!!!
That was my original point other then my opinion 4000 fps is pushing the 300 WSM harder then I would ever recommend to my customers.
Kirby Allen(50)
Alright, lets look at my main point here, For the sake of simplifying this debate, lets say you can get 4000 fps with a 125 gr 30 cal BT out a speicific rifle. That will take that out of the debate.
So we have a 4000 fps 125 gr Ballistis Tip which is being said to have extreme varminting performance at long range, no, at 1000 yards.
My main point throughout the entire debate has been, "It is far easier to hit a small target at long range with a high BC bullet at moderate velocity then with a lightweight, hyper velocity bullet when the down range conditions are unknow."
THis is not opinion, this is fact. Let me offer some numbers.
Say you see a chuck sitting on a nice rock sunning himself at a measured 1000 yards. At your shooting location, you can not feel any wind at all but you notice that there is some wind down range at the target and estimate it at 10 mph.
I will list the windage needed for each round and you can decide for your self which is better in each situation as far as hitting your target:THis is comparing a 300 WSM/125 gr BT @ 4000 fps to a 7mm RUM/120 gr BT @3800 fps and a 7mm AM/200 gr ULD RBBT at 3350
Chambering..................................Wind drift
300 WSM......................................84"
7mm RUM......................................75"
7mm AM........................................33"
Now if your estimate of the wind is dead on you will hit with each chambering. If you are off, you will miss, to what degree you will miss will be determined by the effect the wind has on each bullet. Obviously the 300 WSM is pretty anemic in the wind at 1K.
Lets look at retained velocity which is what makes a bullet expand. Now I have tested the Ballistic Tips for expansion down to as low as 1300 fps at extended ranges. Anything mych under 1600 fps will not produce full expansion with the 30 cal BT or any other BT unless its a varmint BT which the 125 gr BT is not I believe. ANyway, lets look at the retained velocity:
Chambering................................Retained velocity at 1K
300 WSM....................................1530 fps
7mm RUM....................................1630 fps
7mm AM......................................2310 fps
Again, the 300 is on the bottom of the pile and at the bottom end of getting any bullet expansion at all.
Bullet drop is not a concern to me as its easy and predictable to comp for. Bullet energy is also not a huge concern for varmint hunting but it is critical in making a bullet perform on varmint type animals. No velocity and no retained energy means no bullet expansion.
So while if you compare this 300 WSM combo to say a 22-250 with a 55 gr Ballistic Tip at 1000 yards, yes you have an impressive performing round in comparision.
If you compare it to a real long range rifle, there is simply no comparision in any way.
I am honestly suprised that he decided to make the 300 WSM his baby. The 7mm WSM with the 120 gr Ballistic Tip would have been a much more impressive number at long range offering same velocity potential in comparision to the 300 WSM, at least within 100 fps with a much better BC for better down range numbers.
Again, taking away the arguement that 4000 fps is a wise thing to do in a WSM, and getting back to the point in hand, hitting small targets at extended range in unknown down range conditions, the combo you two are talking about is a weak performer compared to legit long range chamberings loaded for the task at hand.
You can say its a varmint rifle all you want, fact is hitting the target is the only thing that matters and that is much easier with a higher BC bullet even if it is driven to dramatically slower velocity. The numbers do not blow smoke, neither does field testing which is where the real proof comes from.
I do not know where this smith is based in, but here in Montana, if you want to shoot 1000 yards, you better have a wind beater in your hands and 300 WSM is certainly not that in any way.
It is not hard at all to get a conventional round to cut the 300 WSM/4000 fps/125 gr BT combos wind drift at least in half with the use of the proper bullets.
This was what everyone was trying to tell Wildcat when he asked over and over about what would be best for varminting at long range.
Forget about bullet performance, its hitting the target that is critical, any bullet larger then 270 will easily and instantly stop a varmint even the size of a yote if the bullet hit the right spot.
Anyway, my main point stands, its just easier to hit a small target down range in unknown shooting conditions with high BC bullets. IF you were building a rifle for that speicfic purpose, why would you build a rifle that would simply "work" when you could build a rifle that would excell!!!
That was my original point other then my opinion 4000 fps is pushing the 300 WSM harder then I would ever recommend to my customers.
Kirby Allen(50)
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