valleysnyper
Well-Known Member
Forgive me guys I'm new to alot of this, what's the idea behind a cast bullet ?
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What 45-70 bullet for baited bears
- Thread starter valleysnyper
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memtb you are right below us and will get the fronts that went through us already.
We get a front Monday and snow lasting all week so expect our gift coming soon.
We get a front Monday and snow lasting all week so expect our gift coming soon.
You can custom cast a bullet that will both obturate and hit with lethal force.
I prefer hard cast in the 20-22 Brinell hardness range for large animals and on smaller animals like deer I used to cast 10-12 on the hardness range for better expansion.
Ask any question you want as that is the only way to learn.There are several that cast here.
memtb
Well-Known Member
Used at low to moderate velocities, a relatively heavy, wide metplat cast bullet penetrates very good, makes a fairly large permanent wound channel and simply put …kills very good!
Often, a jacketed bullet designed to expand at these low(ish) velocities will offer great expansion, and shed bit of weight….both of which hinder penetration.
Here is a good read that much better than I can, explain much about terminal performance when using cast bullets! I think that you'll find it informative and interesting! memtb
valleysnyper
Well-Known Member
Thank you, where could I get cast bullets since I can't make my own
Here is a company here in Montana and is reasonable:
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/ Great company to deal with.
I used to use Cast performance Bullets but if the pictures are any indication of present quality I will pass.
Just type in your favorite browser cast bullet companies.
I am using coated bullets from Montana Bullet Works as they leave ZERO lead in your barrel.
Infact you can have a leaded barrel and shoot it clean with Powder Coated bullets.I have seen it personally!
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/ Great company to deal with.
I used to use Cast performance Bullets but if the pictures are any indication of present quality I will pass.
Just type in your favorite browser cast bullet companies.
I am using coated bullets from Montana Bullet Works as they leave ZERO lead in your barrel.
Infact you can have a leaded barrel and shoot it clean with Powder Coated bullets.I have seen it personally!
I have posted this before so hope this helps.
My favourite bullet is the 350 grain RN Hornady. I have shot a lot of game with this bullet, from 1200 fps on up, you will get full pass through length wise on moose, elk or bear. I used a 45-70 as my primary rifle shooting bear control for 2 decades. I won't say how many bears I shot in that time, no one that doesn't know me would believe it, but in all the bears I shot I never had to track one very far and I can count on one hand the number I used two rounds on. Try for a speed of about 1600 fps. Faster will not improve your kill speed, it is the big hole not hydrostatic shock that does the job, the slower loads are far nicer to shoot and you do get a much faster second shot recovery if you ever actually need it.
I use magnum primers in my 45-70 loads as it gives a much cleaner and full burn. For brass WW, powder, 3031, Varget and 4227 have all been great performers.
Bone stock Marlin 45-70 Guide gun made in 2015.
JM 22" barrel Marlin 45-70 made around 1987
This is by Randy Garret of Garret Ammunition Manufacturers.
https://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html
The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers). Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics. Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh. - Randy Garrett
There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.
Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.
Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.
What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.
Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.
- Randy Garrett
My favourite bullet is the 350 grain RN Hornady. I have shot a lot of game with this bullet, from 1200 fps on up, you will get full pass through length wise on moose, elk or bear. I used a 45-70 as my primary rifle shooting bear control for 2 decades. I won't say how many bears I shot in that time, no one that doesn't know me would believe it, but in all the bears I shot I never had to track one very far and I can count on one hand the number I used two rounds on. Try for a speed of about 1600 fps. Faster will not improve your kill speed, it is the big hole not hydrostatic shock that does the job, the slower loads are far nicer to shoot and you do get a much faster second shot recovery if you ever actually need it.
I use magnum primers in my 45-70 loads as it gives a much cleaner and full burn. For brass WW, powder, 3031, Varget and 4227 have all been great performers.
Bone stock Marlin 45-70 Guide gun made in 2015.
JM 22" barrel Marlin 45-70 made around 1987
This is by Randy Garret of Garret Ammunition Manufacturers.
https://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html
PENETRATION: THE 45-70 & 458 MAGNUMS
The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers). Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics. Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh. - Randy Garrett
There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.
Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.
Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.
What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.
Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.
- Randy Garrett
Thanks Dean2 I read this back in the 90's.Been a while back and a great reminder.
Old Rooster
Old Rooster
Critter Picker
Well-Known Member
Another advantage is that you can size your bullets to your gun. In a lot of my handguns I can actually achieve greater accuracy than with jacketed bullets.
Varmint Hunter
Well-Known Member
I have used both 350 gr Hornady round nose and 350 or 300 gr Flat Point (can't remember exactly on the flat points) and the bears didn't seem to notice the difference.All fell within 20 feet of shot.
These will be my next bear bullet:
They make a bigger bullet but I have not found that bears are all that hard to kill.
.458 Cal-300gr Stone Hammer™ - Hammer Bullets
This Stone Hammer™ with it's 1/4" hollow point will be a heavy hitter in the 45-70 cartridge. Good weight with high vel will be tough to beat. This Stone Hammer™ should not be overlooked in the big .458's for dangerous game. Hard hitting without excess recoil.hammerbullets.com
.458 Cal-447gr Stone Hammer™ - Hammer Bullets
This .458 caliber Stone Hammer™ has a 1/4" hollow point to give the nose profile enough taper to feed reliably and deform rapidly to a minimum full caliber with 90% retained weight. The large nose dia will allow these bullets to work well in lever actions with tube magazines. Qty-25
I used the 402gr Hammer at 1,700 fps on a bull moose. The results were impressive. The 300gr Hammer would be better for black bears IMO. The 300 TSX does a job on them too.
Midway has cast bullets for 45-70. They, Midway, also have 45-70 Lee bullet moulds/with handles for $33 bucks. Most kids, back in the day, 12 years and up could run a lead toy soldier or fishing sinkers mould and bullet mould use is very similar. Old gas camping or Coleman stove, cast iron pan, lead dipper, mould and handles, equals cheap practice. Nosler makes a 300 gr Ballistic Tip for 45-70, it's also perfect for tiny groups in a shiny new Marlin 1895 when ur going loaded for bear. Good Luck!
calling4life
Well-Known Member
https://www.bengalbullets.com/shop
For the 45/70 size bullets they have a 400gr, 500gr, and 600gr wide flat nose gas check and they are coated bullets.
For the 45/70 size bullets they have a 400gr, 500gr, and 600gr wide flat nose gas check and they are coated bullets.
If you want to use 500 and 600 grain bullets you either need to seat them REALLY deep in the case or use them in something other than a Marlin style lever. These heavy bullets work fine in a single shot though.
One thing I forgot to mention is you should slug your barrel to make sure of how big the bore actually is and pick a bullet 2 to 4 thousandths over that number.
Also when shooting a cast bullet over 1400 fps a good lube on the bullet is needed unless the bullet is coated and then nothing is needed.
There are things regular casters know that it takes a forum like this for many casters to pass on information on what don't work and what does work.
Also when shooting a cast bullet over 1400 fps a good lube on the bullet is needed unless the bullet is coated and then nothing is needed.
There are things regular casters know that it takes a forum like this for many casters to pass on information on what don't work and what does work.
