uso or nf

[Jeff In TX]

H-Bar,

Depending on which military sniper group you were watching, only the marines and FBI snipers use the Unertl 10X sniper scope, which can be manufactured by US Optics or Unertl. The US Army snipers chose the Leupold Mark 4 M3 10X And have since moved on to the AN/PVS-10 day-night-optics for 90% of their M24 SWS rifles (Sniper Weapon System). The navy seals signed on with a fixed 10X sniper scope made by tasco, but they have migrated to the AN/PVS-10 day-night-optics as the marine corps is considering the same move.

Hope it helps.

 

[SCL]

HBAR,
All of the stuff I listed came out of my paycheck - over the years Uncle Sam has provided me lots of rifles and optics to work with, but all of the stuff in my reply to WyoWhisper was purchased with my own hard-earned cash. They are my personal rigs and are for fun only...most of the stuff is too cutting edge to be adapted or approved by our convenitional military brass these days -which is sad, but true. :-(

Uncle Sam has me in Colombia doing diplomatic work - I am a former military officer who switched over to the dipomatic corps a few years back. And trust me fellas, it takes a lot of scrimping and saving on a Gov't salary to get the guns I now have - lots of assignments in nasty places in order to get hazardous duty pay, post-differential, etc. It also helped being DINK for the first eight years of my marriage, with an understanding wife who made far more coin then I ever did.

Regards,
SCL

 

[daveosok]

I think they make scopes for people who cannot find in other manufactures what they need for their purpose, plain and simple supply and demand.
For the most part Leupold, Premier and Night Force cover just about what ever high end scope buyer needs some may have to adjust to their scopes and work with them for the right combo but many fall right where they need them to be.
I was once into USO a lot and thought they were the best scopes money could buy and maybe they still are, but for the price quote I got for one I'll stick with NF scopes and work with what I have because at 1k for a custom reticle and 4 k for the rest of the scope I could buy 4 12-42 NXS's.
JM2C

 

[DANTEC]

except disagrre I have get nothing from US optic

first order with 50% deposit a SN3 variable 22x in titanium
one year of delivery I have trip in US optic company in CA to get the scope NOTHING and if you want to be impress you must visit US OPTIC my local garage shop is more impressive
two month later I get a call that my order is not done !!!! loose the order !!!
one week later they have " discover " the scope in a safe
but they doesn t deliver because I have one year and half ago request quotation so quotation are orders !!!! and they doesn t want to deliver without full payment of three scopes that they not make !!!!

at least I get the scope at the shot show with a wrong set of ring ...

cover of button reostat for lighted reticule is loose ( poor machining ) ...

next order a SN9 loook terrific scope for ultr along but never delivery I still wait DR Williams in France since two years sure that I have make no deposit but I have get nothing

On a ST10 new scope out of the box reticule is of center !!!!

I really think that for this level of price quality MUST be outstanding and SERVICE too

it is seem that now nice catalog , big show and amazing web site are the way to follow to sale anything over the price

same as 408 Chyetac ... I have try to contact this company during months for nothing and when you check real performance of 408 that a JOKE

now I use IOR scope , Leupold modified by Premier I prefer lower price than ghost product

I shoot at 2000 meters that very difficult and I am always amazing by "sunday morning shooter" with top internet equipement try to explain me that they have find THE SOLUTION and they right in the target

shooting long range is same that make love , you can do that front of your TV or front of PC screen but real practice is better

good shooting and enjoy true facts

DAN TEC

 

[DMCI]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> I've never tried a USO, but for the money, how much better than a nightforce can it be? -- JohnM <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have had nothing but positive experiences from USO over the last 5 or so years. Here are just a few of my projects. I will let them speak for themselves.

D.

This last scope on my .260 Varmint rifle is the 6-30x58 Lit ERGO with a 35mm tube. This is the classic $3500 "HUBBLE". The others including the USMC M40 are much less expensive. The SN-3 scope will resolve the color of PD eyes at 400 yards. How important is this? Fairly when you are shooting juvenile PDs at 700 yards.

PS: These kind of comments will get you thrown off some boards as being unfair and unpaid advertising for USO. So what!

[ 12-17-2003: Message edited by: DMCI ]

 

[DANTEC]

DMCI

you write :

PS: These kind of comments will get you thrown off some boards as being unfair and unpaid advertising for USO. So what!

that perhaps unfair and unpaid but when a factory take customer for dummy's that not the way to follow to get "happy customer "

last point on USO , I was the agent USO for FRANCE and when I have share a both in MINIPOL in Paris for USO I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED ANY SCOPE FOR SHOW
kind isn it even after prepared the show one year in advance and make a trip in the USO factory with several calls between and mails to get an answer as NO PROBLEM ERIC I SEND YOU DEMO MODELSSS FOR THE SHOW , I have never request free scope but factory demo model !!!!!

I STILL WAIT and I have just received a proposal for two scope at not really demoprice , for the money loos in time and both rate NOTHING .

LAST POINT

AS dealer 5% off of retail is nothing that **** in the air , and more **** when you read the paper in Unertl website and check the price they have put on the contract with a really not happy customer

Put nice pictures on Internet or website why not if that let people dream because dream is free BUT busines is busines and last point stop contact between a factory and his agent BECAUSE I am french citizen is BULLSHITT .

UNFAIR you say ?????????????? RATHER UNHAPPY AT ALL .

good shooting

DAN TEC

null

 

[DMCI]

I suggest you write a letter to the President of France!

[ 12-17-2003: Message edited by: DMCI ]

 

[DANTEC]

DCMI

If you "enjoy" to show the money you can send in amazing scopes I am really happy for you , not really sure that a 35 mm tube scope with hudge quantity of MOA for a 260 REM is a real absolute need for shooting at 600 ! for 3500 USD I can built a good to very good 1 K rifle
From my side I prefer to get three or four Leupold , IOR or even Night Force that put 3500 USD in one scope and be sure that service is available .

BUT

I respect only honnesty and when a company write that are the very best in the world , when a company manager give his word and that far before the 11 sept ( very sad day I agree and I was in the USA just three week after the 11 september ... ) I can t accpet they don t respect their word .

and if a company manager doesn t respect his word be sure that to be french customer french or resident of planet mars that these same for me !!!!!!!!!!!!!

and put all french citizens in the same basket is the same for me to write that all US citizen are pro ban gun because you had not so long ago a wonderfull president named Bill Clinton and his so wonderful wife ... seely isn t it ........

Be sure that I respect USA and be sad of our foreign politic but if I can do something for that alone again the french government you can perhaps from your side cancel "crime Bill Laws " alone that surely can help lot of guns owners and even not only US Citizen .

as soon as you sucess let me know

good shooting

DAN TEC

 

[SCL]

DANTEC,
I read your previous posts with great interest and am sorry to hear how you were treated - regardless of nationality I think everyone in the free world deserves good customer service. That said, I have the following questions for you since I am not/not a USO rep or dealer:

1. What was the agreement you had with USO regarding dealer samples for the MILPOL (or whatever) show you wanted to attend? Was it in writing, via e-mail, part of a dealer's agreement contract, etc?

2. Who have you dealt with to try and resolve your complaints? JBW3, or his predecessor?

Regarding your comment about 5% discount being ****, its still better than nothing my friend, and 5% of a $3k scope sale is a profit of $150 a scope. Personally, I think trying to be a middleman on custom items is a risky endeavor, because most custom items don't have large profit margins built into them, particularly if you can buy factory direct - why pay a middle man?

This is why no one pays full retail for a Loopy Mk4 ($1300 plus) unless they are foolish. Leupold is a mass market outfit that deals through a distribution network of middlemen. Mk4's can easily be purchased for under a grand, so Loopy must be selling them to dealers for $800 or so - these scopes are far easier to sell because more folks can afford them, but your margins are going to get cut as middlemen try and under price each other.

Enough of the economics, if you weren't happy with 5%, why did you become an agent for them in the first place? I don't mean this to be a flame at all, just curious.

Regarding DCMI's scope choices: If the guy wants to put a LR scope on a short-range gun, let him...its a free country and its his money.

In closing, I think everyone here needs to take a deep breath and realize that all mechanical devices can fail. Over the years I have had both Loopy and NF NXS scopes that didn't track, or hold zero when moving through the power scale. I rushed right out and bought one of ther first Loopy LR variables after Norm Chandler got up at a sniper training conference and said this was the greatest thing since sliced bread. The one I got had a floating zero between low and high power.

I am not bashing Loopy because of this one bad scope. The lesson I took away from it was to never be the first to buy anything new. The same thing goes for USO end their EREK feature. Everything mechanical needs to have its bugs worked out, and IMHO both Loopy and USO have worked hard to correct design problems once they were identified.

Just my .02 - I am not a USO employee, shareholder, or whatever, but if JBW3 (or anyone for that matter) wants to give me free optics I would take them.

SCL

 

[DMCI]

[ 12-17-2003: Message edited by: DMCI ]

 

[DANTEC]

and I am very happy to have to be stop a customer of dreams anf the dummy 's of the year .

and if the way to make money is to work with 5% off on retail price with 50% of deposit and 1 year and half of delivery time and received uncontroloed quality product !!!!, I sincerely need to change of bank and perhaps of country too but surrely of scope supllier ....

for the scope supllier change is already done and IOR is :
nice , well made , quality is good , service is OK and people from IOR are straight and honnest what need more !

I only respect honnesty and righteness , I am really happy and glad to work in trust with most company in the USA as MacMillan, Pacific Precision , G Schneider barrel , PAC NOR , IOR USA and some other .

good shooting and enjoy real facts

DAN TEC

[ 12-18-2003: Message edited by: DANTEC ]

 

[SCL]

Dantec,
Could you please answer the questions I posted above - I am very curious to get more actual details as to what happened and why, rather than "USO sucks and these companies are better" banter like your post above.

I want to "enjoy the facts" as you write - so please sheare them with us.

Regards,
SCL

 

[DANTEC]

DANTEC,
(I read your previous posts with great interest and am sorry to hear how you were treated - regardless of nationality I think everyone in the free world deserves good customer service. That said, I have the following questions for you since I am not/not a USO rep or dealer

(1. What was the agreement you had with USO regarding dealer samples for the MILPOL (or whatever) show you wanted to attend? Was it in writing, via e-mail, part of a dealer's agreement contract, etc? )

I have not signed paper when I spend three years in contact , mails , phone calls and one visit at the company main office , make a first order with 50% of deposit
that enought for me when I work with some one first thing is the Word of this man I dont spend time to built files to prepare law pursuit but some of the meeting was made with some of my friends ( no need to use the word of wittness ).

(2. Who have you dealt with to try and resolve your complaints? JBW3, or his predecessor?)

JWB3 ? who is JBW3 the only man I have meet is Dr WILLIAMS following last news it s seem that DR Williams is not a Dr of any kind but a man is man and when a company owner say me OK I send you demo models for a show I think that normal to send demo models , when a company owner shedule a meeting or a trip I find normal to respect shedule and abnormal to cancel two or three time the meeting and cancel the scope delivery ( SN 9 scope never be delivery so never be paid ...)

(Regarding your comment about 5% discount being ****, its still better than nothing my friend, and 5% of a $3k scope sale is a profit of $150 a scope. Personally, I think trying to be a middleman on custom items is a risky endeavor, because most custom items don't have large profit margins built into them, particularly if you can buy factory direct - why pay a middle man?)

5% of difference between retail and dealer is not 5% of gain specialy when you lock 1500 USD as deposit during near one year and half ? I am perhaps a dummy but to make a bank loan of 1500 USD for 1 year and half cost is a bit more than 5% of 3500 USD or close I am not a charity organisation !!!
I am not a target for my customer too and last point when a foreign company want to get govenerment market basic rule is to get an agent who translate documentation, organized meeting ... and that not for free

(This is why no one pays full retail for a Loopy Mk4 ($1300 plus) unless they are foolish. Leupold is a mass market outfit that deals through a distribution network of middlemen. Mk4's can easily be purchased for under a grand, so Loopy must be selling them to dealers for $800 or so - these scopes are far easier to sell because more folks can afford them, but your margins are going to get cut as middlemen try and under price each other.)

when I order one scope to look a like major company I just a scope if for one scope order that a big nightmare between lost order , delivery date fail , mistake in order , and no quality control before delivery I am not really sure to want to take risq to order a big quantity of scope to this company .

Last point on 5% during the first speaking with USO rate was 20% that ok for hight tech product if delivery time is short enought dont forget that I am not a man with a fortune as some customer on this forum to be able to order scope for fun and be happy to show the money they can spend in scope
in our last speaking rate down to 5% why ???.


(Regarding DCMI's scope choices: If the guy wants to put a LR scope on a short-range gun, let him...its a free country and its his money.)

I agree whith you that but a forum is a place to share and share usefull informations for other customer I never spit on any company if the company is right and honnest and even if I havedelivery problem I can understand problem but I doesn t like at all to be the dummy of the year that exactly the same with the wonderfull ( another wonderfull company named Lost River with amazing product)purchase a 408 Chyennne and you reach 2500 METRES target EASY and when you carefully read adds and articles they miss 3200 meters just because scope have not enought moa !!!!!!!!
where I can see that PLEASE

( In closing, I think everyone here needs to take a deep breath and realize that all mechanical devices can fail. Over the years I have had both Loopy and NF NXS scopes that didn't track, or hold zero when moving through the power scale. I rushed right out and bought one of ther first Loopy LR variables after Norm Chandler got up at a sniper training conference and said this was the greatest thing since sliced bread. The one I got had a floating zero between low and high power.)

mecanical can fail OK but no control quality ! mistake in order ! no order following ! I prefer a old Chevy available and reliable with proven performance than purchase on paper a dream 4x4 at 100K USD .

(I am not bashing Loopy because of this one bad scope. The lesson I took away from it was to never be the first to buy anything new. The same thing goes for USO end their EREK feature. Everything mechanical needs to have its bugs worked out, and IMHO both Loopy and USO have worked hard to correct design problems once they were identified.)

Leupold average quality is good , IOR optics are better than Leupold and both service of Leupold and IOR are great and I can with the price of one USO purchase 3 Leupold or IOR and not need to make iron sight shooting if a scope have a failure .

last point to think about , because some time logic help to understand
Facts :
on this forum you find the top shooters in ultra LR
on this forum you find people with brain able to be witch on
on this forum you have people with good income and who spend money ( happy are bachelor .. )

Question :
why do think that only very shooters use USO
why to do you think that very few military team seem to be equiped in USO , remenber the very long shot in Afganistan by canadian sniper !!
what can be the use of a 50x power scope with 2 inch main tube ?
what can be the use of a 260 moa scope ?
what can be the use of 20 inch long scope ?
what can be the use of a 4 inch bell objective ?
how you sucess to use a scope set at 3 inch of your barrel axis ?
what is the goal to produce same scope under different name ?
as exemple what is the difference between a SN 2 variable and a SN3 variable (not on paper but from customer side )
Why SN10 wich want to be a entry class scope have numerous option if that a true challenger to Leupold Mark IV OK BUT why not just make a 10 X and 16X with 44 mm bell obj without a list option wich cost more than the price of basic scope and cost closely the price of a top range scope as SN1 basic scope ?

Make a hudge catalog of optionssss and amazing design look same as toy catalog of my son that make dream as soon as you dont open your wallet after that make cry

I really think that IF USO want really to be a serious company they split half of their catalog and kill all double product and make options simple and by this way :
start to produce limited range of product , available in short delivery time , STRONGLY controled BEFORE DELIVERY and a better price .

good shooting and enjoy real facts

DAN TEC

 

[SCL]

DANTEC,
Sir,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions - they were most insightful, and provided a good amount of insight into your unfortunate dealings with USO.

As for the questions in the last part of your post, here are my opinions (and mind you, they are opinions only):

Only a small number of shooters (and probably far fewer military teams) use USO products due to cost. A custom made item almost always costs more than a mass production item. I think Loopy is the most used because it offers the most bang for the buck - it offers a a lot of capability, great customer service (in the U.S. anyway), good glass, good construction, etc.

Most civilians and almost all military purchasing decisions are based on cost. Why spend $2500 or more on a custom scope (like USO) when a far cheaper mass prodcution item will do the job just fine?

USO's role in the marketplace (as I understand it - I am not an employee) is to provide CUSTOM optics - stuff for the guys who want/need 300 MOA scopes, big objective lenses, etc. Most shooters don't need this level of equipment, but for those that do, there is only one place to go - USO. This is why their catalog has so many different options.

You recommend that USO start producing scopes on set delivery schedules etc. - this defeats the purpose of being a cutom prodcut provider, and makes them start to compete against the mass market giants like Loopy, S&B, NXS, etc. I don't think there is enough demand for their products (nor desire of manaegment's behalf) to try and compete against the mass market guys - this is not their business model nor strategy.

As far as the SN10, if you don't want to add on the extra options (i.e. lit reticle, ergo obj, etc.) you don't have to - just because you have the options doesn't mean you must purchase them - besides, some folks won't buy a scope w/out a lit reticle, other guys won't buy one if it does have one - this way, USO has both bases covered.

Regarding the 50x, two inch tube, 260 MOA, etc. questions, I think the answer to all of those questioons is that they are useful (to a point and everyone has a different opinion of where that point is) in ultra long range shooting. I think 50X is overkill because mirage eats your lunch at long range over 30X or so, but more magnification comes in handy, more MOA's mean more use of your given rounds ballistic curve, and more rand at which you can be accurate. Two inch (that's freakin massive!) tubes and big objectives gather more light and let you use the scope in poor lighting conditions, etc.

Most folks don't need this type of expensive gear, which is why USO will never be found in the hands of a lot of folks.

In closing, thanks for sharing your experiences with the forum. I hope your dealings with the other companies you listed are more rewarding and less troublesome.

Good luck and good shooting,

SCL