Up/Downhill corrections

Devin,

I have and have used all 3 NF/Exbal versions (palm, Pocket PC, desktop) the pocket PC is the way to go, however you need the desk top version to print a backup drop sheet to keep with your PC for when it doesn't work.
 
Edge,

I have not used the SMI lab and can only speak of the Exbal program for this iinfo. If you apply cosi ne to distance, cosine to dope for the actual yardage, and run it through Exbal program you will in fact get 3 different answers. I physiclly shot 4 different rifles on a given # of shots at different angles and distances and compared my results with the 3 corrections. The Exbl program was never more the .25 moa off from my actual field dope for the shot. I don't know if you program runs applied cosine directly or through a formula like the Exbal.
 
Thanks Shawn. I guess I'm going to have to save my pennies for a PocketPC now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I just ran a little experiment on my calculator and even if you take that actual cosine of 45 (.707106781) and then multiply it by your 800 yard dope you still get 18.738 MOA. So the NF/Exbal program must take into account all the environmental factors also, which would otherwise take a person a long time to figure out by simply using a calculator.

Devin
 
I typed this one or 2 year's ago on PLRH; I'm too idle to type it again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif looks like noone read it anyway!

<font color="blue"> The 'base line' [or 'corrected horizontal range' or 'magic physical-law defying range'] method, although used by many is actually the least accurate way of using your cos measurement...because it has absolutely nothing to do with the ballistics of what's going on in inclined fire!

Far more accurate is to multiply the comeup you would have applied for your laser distance by the cos of the angle.
This does reflect what is going on ballistically ...the bullet has the same TOF to a given target regardless of angle of fire...it therefore drops the same amount regardless of angle of fire (it doesn't magically drop less!)

...what changes is your perspective to that drop (and therefore the apparent shape of the trajectory).

Hold a pencil vertically in your hand at arms length (with your arm horizontal); lets say the pencil length represents your bullet drop at 1 arms length.

Now drop your arm to 45deg, but keep the pencil vertical.

The pencil appears shorter, even though it has remained the same length

....ie the drop has remained the same, but less drop is apparent because of your perspective.

How long does it appear to be? multiply it's actual length by the cos of 45deg...just the same as multiplying your laser range comeup by the cos of the angle!

You'll see that Ward at ACI has recently amended his instructions for the ACI to reflect this.

Here's a link to a link on the ACI site where all this is explained by one of the Sierra Infinity software designers:

http://www.snipertools.com/article4.htm

Only read this bit if you're a ballistics nerd: The software engineer concludes that a set of rather complicated calculations based on actual bullet drop (rather than simply comeups) are somehow yet more accurate again (this is the method he uses in the Sierra program)...he tests his theory by comparing the results of this type of calculation against his Sierra outputs...they are close to each other so he concludes greater accuracy...what he fails to point out / realise is that both the calculation method and his software method are the same...of course they'll be close!! ...nothing proved!

...unless a ballistic prog goes into a full vector analysis of how gravitational acceleration is affecting bullet velocity throughout its time of flight (and therefore calculating the minute changes to TOF at varying angles of projection)(ie 'straight up' it will directly slow the bullet, 'straight down will speed it)the only greater accuracy from a basic ballistic prog comes from the fact that 'comeups' represent data that has been rounded-of to the nearest click value, if you use that and then round-off the result..the answer will be slightly less accurate than precise raw data that has only been rounded off once.
</font>


...and as a common-sense check:

Artillerymen receive target locations as grid references.

Grid references alone provide no angle of sight data (ie should the target happen to be on top of a hill or in a valley); and so Gunners are presented immediately with what some riflemen are calling 'true horizontal range'.

But Gunners, if working manually, will use this distance, (plus some trig based on the calculated angle of sight between their location and the target's) to work out the 'slant range' to the target (and then do some other mumbo jumbo too)

....the point being; true long range Jedi /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif do (and have done since WW1!) the exact opposite of what the 'corrected horizontal range' riflemen suggest.
 
sorry Shawn,

please read the last line for explaination of what happened. Your 100% right on the &lt;.99 COS, should have thought about the answer more.
 
Sierra's improved rifleman's rule:
PATH + DROP*(1-COS(ANGLE*PI()/180))

As stated, TOF is same, DROP is same, but PATH is adjusted for angle shooting.
 
To make sure that I understand the initial example, and that if range is not stretched far beyond 700/800 yards the use of Field Charts is very appropiate as long as atmospheric standard conditions are used, if we only know altitude.

Here goes an example, where the shooter can interpolate the middle values for the incline angle, just to obtain a sensible, good prediction for a first shot.

Of course, Field Charts are handy, since they never run out of batteries, are imprevious to rain and sun, and they cost nothing!

First the values I used :

LB2_Track1.jpg


Second the complete results

LB2_Results1.jpg


and finally a Field Chart, that in this case calls for a rapid interpolation in order to find an approximate value for an incline of 25°

LB2_SlopeChart.jpg
 
Gustavo
Standard pressure for 5000' altitude is 24.9"Hg, 41deg, and 0% humidity.
Why do you think standard conditions at altitude will fairly represent actual shooting conditions? Is it 41 degrees there?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Gustavo
Standard pressure for 5000' altitude is 24.9"Hg, 41deg, and 0% humidity.
Why do you think standard conditions at altitude will fairly represent actual shooting conditions? Is it 41 degrees there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike you are right, those are not the standard conditions, I just used the same data as posted by Eaglet in order to compare notes regarding the previous data.

My post regarding the use of atmospheric standard condtions was not related to the example at all. Was just a friendly reminder.

Hope this clears the issue for good /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BTW, you are a good observer and made a nice point!

Here goes a graphical output ( Path in MOA ) of the same dataset, from level fire ( Track-1) to an incline of 50° in 10° steps. Just to complement the original point made by Shawn.

LB2_Graphs2.jpg
 
Ok, thanks for that Eaglet. I understand what he was saying now. I have always multiplied the MOA or actually the IPHY by the cosine to get the correction but have also told people that don't want to do that because of "heat of the moment" jitters that they can times the range by the cosine and still make a kill. In your example, doing this would cause a 4" low hit at 800 yards on a 28 degree angle which would still kill a big game animal. And 28 degrees is ONE HECK OF AN ANGLE! That big bull we killed last year at 1302 yards was at the top of a mountain and we were at the bottom shooting straight up at it and if memory serves, it was only a 20 degree shot. You would be hard pressed to find an angle steeper than this.

Most shots even out here in the west are going to be 10 degrees or less most of the time and that would only cause a miss of a couple inches or less at 800 yards dialing of the cosinexyardage. The deer ain't going to know the difference but it is still a good observation and one to be aware of. Good thread.
 
[ QUOTE ]
That big bull we killed last year at 1302 yards was at the top of a mountain and we were at the bottom shooting straight up at it and if memory serves, it was only a 20 degree shot. You would be hard pressed to find an ang! le steeper than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

GG,

You did plug it into Exbal, did you not? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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