Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspective

[OnTarget]

Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti

Pete, I appreciate you taking the time to answer all of the questions, you certainly have much experience, certainly more than the typical clerk in a sporting goods store. I plan to follow through and buy one S&B scope and see where that takes me.

I think you've made a very good case for S&B. I will only point out one thing, if I understand correctly S&B is a small company and lets just say that in a year they make a total of 5,000 scopes all varieties. I think its absolutely safe to say that Leupold is a much larger company than S&B and just for a guess lets say Leupold produces 50,000 scopes and finally lets say that both companies have a reliability of 96%. So for S&B that equates to 200 scopes and for Leupold it would be 2,000 scopes with problems. Even though both are 'equally reliable' the perception from the average gunshop/gunsmith could be that Leupold scopes have more issues because they see more come in although in reality one is as reliable as the other. I have no hard numbers to support this, but I think its safe to believe Leupold and probably Nikon produce more scopes than S&B.

Hopefully if S&B comes out with a laser range finding rifle scope it will be more aesthetic than the current Zeiss offering and the past one from Swarovski, they both kind of look like the car that Chevy Chase drove in the movie 'Vacation'- cluttered and very bulky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[janneuf]

Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti

I don't buy some of what I have read in here on this topic. First, I have serious trouble buying that scopes are only marked up 20%. NO WAY. If that were the case how would you turn the lights on? Thinka about it, for evry $100 in scope you make $20 in GROSS profit. No store could turn its lights on or pay sales personell for that.

Secondly it's not accurate to say that paying more buys more, nor is it accurate to say that paying more means fewere failures. For reliability, I would take a Toyota over a Rolls Royce ANYDAY!

Some products are simply positioned to a higher-end segment, period! Does it really cost 400% more to produce an S&B scope? I doubt it.

It's a simple rule, buy the best scope YOU can afford. Any scope beats iron sights for the average hunter. Can't we all just get along?

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti

Neufdaddy,, you saying i should increase my prices?
here, work it out for your self.. if you don't believe the prices, try ordering one.
PMII Series in euros
Trade Retail
10x42 LM30 936.32 1131.5
3-12x50 LM34 1197.12 1357.8
paralax 1338.1 1600
Illum/para 1625.26 1975
double turn
illum para 1732 2105

4-16x50 1381 1679
paralax

illum para 1620 1971
double turn
para illum 1727 2110

5-25x56 1760 2120
illum-para
double turn
1.1-4x20 1121.72 1300
special ret

by my reconing thats about 20%.

there is a difference between Luxurious extravaganza and quality. I wouldn't buy a rolls royce car either. But an airplane engine maybe.
the mark up on many firearms related kit is very little, many of the US suppliers only give 10%.
Pete

 

[Chrismadrid]

Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti

[ QUOTE ]
Does it really cost 400% more to produce an S&B scope? I doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Having lived in West Germany - YES. Salaries are MUCH higher - 6 weeks leave STANDARD. Compare that with the orient!.

A USO is also not cheap. These are scopes built to order by hand - Probably with overcautious QC.

What I still find difficult to believe is that an IOR costs so much. Qualified Romanians FLOOD out to Spain to work as waiters - so I doubt the salaries are great. If IOR would only see sense and stop thinking like tehy do my guess is they could do MUCH better in Europe than they do. The Russians are learning.

Petes prices are lower than most - In Europe the MAXIMUM sales price is often set BY LAW. I know what trade markups are in most of Europe as does Pete. GOOD stuff has lower margins more often than not (25% is common). Cheap tat often much higher (I've seen 100%) - but gets discounted.

I've just purchased my 1st S&B (5-25*56). The difference is startling - but I confess I could manage with less - it's just nobady else was prepared to make what I wanted at the time. This custom approach has its price.

 

[janneuf]

Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti

Pete,

I was not attacking you in any way. I am not familiar with what you pay. All I know is the are few retailers in the the USA that could make a living at 20% gross margins.

Neuf

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti

Neuf, i didn't feel you where attacking me mate. 20% gross profit is about standard over here, some items are more, some are less, on some items i make 0% but supply them as part of a package to keep customers happy and provide a complete service.
Sure there are other retailers who wack on the profit, but the market is sick to death of the $ bieng swapped for the pound sign.
Why the heck do you think i'm working 2 jobs?

regards Pete

 

[overbore]

Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti

Chris, Horus has a S&amp;B option as to where their propritary reticle is installed; however, I have two questions for all: 1. has anyone used or seen the S&amp;B with Horus and 2, where can I find any scope with their H-45 reticle? Horus is out of that specific reticle and has no plans to make more. Thanks, Overbore <font color="red"> </font>

 

[wildcat]

COL48, this is the first time I am reading this post. I believe you said that Swaro and S&amp;B have better glass than Nghtforce, I STRONGLY disagree with you. I have looked and used both a Swaro and S&amp;B scope and their glass is not better than Nightforce. Swaro and S&amp;B are good scopes, but they do not compare to Nightforce. I still think the best scopes to buy and use at this moment in time are #1 Nightforce and #2 Leupold. Now if your talking about rangefinders, I would have to agree that Swaro has the best range finder. Anyway, I guess it just comes down to what scope you like. All the optics mentoned are excellent, but my vote goes to Nightforce and Leupold.

 

[OnTarget]

Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti

I would like to point out something that isn't subjective and that is the following US Dollar/Euro exchange rates for the date of April 3, 2006 back each year on the same date back to 1999, as follows:

One US Dollar buys .82558 Euros on 4/3/06
One US Dollar buys .77561 Euros on 4/3/05
One US Dollar buys .82490 Euros on 4/3/04
One US Dollar buys .92902 Euros on 4/3/03
One US Dollar buys 1.13773 Euros on 4/3/02
One US Dollar buys 1.13714 Euros on 4/3/01
One US Dollar buys 1.04650 Euros on 4/3/00
One US Dollar buys .92353 Euros on 4/3/99

Now you can choose different dates in each of the respective years, but it gives a general indicator of where the rates were in a given year and I can certainly understand the raising of prices in 2003 due to the significant fall of the dollar against the euro from the previous year of 2002, but since then the trading range has been realitively tight +/- aprroximately 10%, yet the european optics seem to keep climbing in price. If you look at where the exchange rate between the two years of 1999 and 2006 the price in 2006 should only be about 10% more than 1999 prices; even if you add modest inflation the over the last 7 years the prices for european optics shouldn't be anywhere near current levels. I think the main reason that prices have increased out of sinc with the exchange rates is US consumers are willing to pay more and maybe the european companies are willing to see how high they can push the prices, but I dont think the data supports its due to exchange rates alone.

 

[col48]

[ QUOTE ]
COL48, this is the first time I am reading this post. I believe you said that Swaro and S&amp;B have better glass than Nghtforce, I STRONGLY disagree with you. I have looked and used both a Swaro and S&amp;B scope and their glass is not better than Nightforce. Swaro and S&amp;B are good scopes, but they do not compare to Nightforce. I still think the best scopes to buy and use at this moment in time are #1 Nightforce and #2 Leupold. Now if your talking about rangefinders, I would have to agree that Swaro has the best range finder. Anyway, I guess it just comes down to what scope you like. All the optics mentoned are excellent, but my vote goes to Nightforce and Leupold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have not found a nightforce or a Leupold that is any where close to a s&amp;b or swaro glass

i have had them in all types,this is just my opinion,
and i fell what looks good to you or me will not suit everyone.

i use a nightforce on my 243ai fox gun
and a Leupold on my 270 wsm deer gun

when i find a scope that fills my requirements i will sell the nightforce.
Field of view is crap,and the hole of the eye piece moves when you tern up the mag.the glass is good but not as good as the above mentioned,i shoot at night on a lamp with this gun and for the price £1160 i think it should be better IMHO

the Leupold has good glass but you can not put it up in the ranks of s&amp;b &amp; swaro or zeiss for that matter
but for the price it is excellent,and the glass is good. (thats y it is on the 270 wsm. i shoot this in the day only)

this is only my opinion,and how i find it.
i also find the zeiss glass better than nightforce.

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Wildcat, maybe you and Ian can get a group discount at the opticians, you guys both need your eyes tested. !!!
Col. I'm working on it, S&amp;B are working on an Fclass scope that will cover your requirements..
On Target, i know what you mean, its the same [censored] here on US produced stuff, they bandged the prices of US made kit up a few years back, now the ex rate is more favorable the **** prices never came down..
what you should also take into account is the introduction of the blasted Euro here, that caused massive inflation, I am paying more than double for a litre of diesel fuel that i was 5 1/2 years ago. a can of coke costs 2 euro's it used to cost 2 marks.
just before the introduction of the Euro i bought a new S&amp;B 3-12x50 classic illuminated, i paid 1850DM for it (still have the reciept)today, at my reduced retail price the same scope costs 1225uro thats 2430 ish DM, thats an increase in price of nearly 600 DM which is nearly 1/3 of what the scope cost back then.
same kind of increases on everything over here. and wages / salaries haven't increased anywhere near inline with that.
Pete

 

[wildcat]

Thanks for the tip Pete. However, in my opinion, I feel Nightforce scopes are a better overall scope. Anyhow, that is my opinion. Wildcat

 

[Chrismadrid]

Pete - Sum uv that samcks uv "When I wera lad ..... 'n kids t'day just wont b'lleave yer" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif But I' tellee summat - thees rite lad!. Aye!. Sithee-eckythump-truble at mill ........ mumble mumble mumble.

 

[ds]

Chris,

Do you remember the Goodies. Now when you are talking eckythump and black puddings remember Pete is on the wrong side (Yorkshire).I'm from Lanc's - the right side.

David.