Ultimate Long Range Moderate recoil Deer Round

[keithcandler]

Shooting deer at ranges past 300 yards and being able to find them if/when you hit them takes practice at the range, and good equipment that you know very well. First, I will assume that you have a range finder that is reliable to give you accurate ranges. From my experiences, of shooting deer out West shooting from one ridge to another, you should be shooting a gun with some serious horse power. I do believe that the 270 and 7MM Short mag are great choices.
A lot is going to depend on just how well you have mastered the rifle, how well your rifle shoots, quality and power of your optics. I have a Browing A bolt in 7 Mag and a Savage 114 in 7 Mag, with both rifles shooting less than 1/2" groups constantly at 100 yards, both rifles are totally tricked out. When I go deer hunting in areas that I know that my shots are going to run 300-450 yards, I have a custom 7 STW that I am shooting the 140g bullet at 3700+ fps (26" bbl) or a custom 257 Weatherby(26" bbl) that has no freebore where I am shooting the 100g partition at 3800 or the 115 partition at 3650 fps. The 7 STW and the 257 Weatherby are not light weight rifles in the least, they are Rem Sendero's with duplicate custom bbls on them. When hunting deer out West off of horse back, it was very common to shoot from one ridge to another. Even with a 7 Mag shooting 140g Ballistic tips at 3200 fps, it often took more than one shot to put an animal down for good at ranges of 400 yards out. You see, the wind is almost always moving the bullet somewhat. At 400 yards, it is not uncommon to have a bullet blown 18" off from where you are aiming as the wind moves up and down the valley or up and down the canyons. Bullets shed much of their velocity at 500 yards, thus the hydorstatic shock is greatly deminished, bullet placement is critical. It is a wild thing to see a bullet hit a deer in the rear leg when you have aimed at the front shoulder because you did not allow for the wind. From taking all the long shots out West, I learned just how important a muzzle break was. Make no mistake in learning that a rifle with a muzzle break is shot more accurately than a rifle without a muzzle break. In the very least, you will be able to shoot a rifle that does not kick better than a rifle that beats the devil out of you. Many times when taking a shot past 450 yards, a deer may stand for a second shot not knowing where the shot came from as long as the bullet has not hit underneath him splattering with dirt. If you see the exact impact, you will know where to aim for the follow up shot. I do use the Peltor Tac 6 electronic ear muffs when I deer hunt due to the muzzle break. Remember to use enough glass to see your animal. I think that in NC you are limited on the nubmer of bucks that you can shoot. It is sickening to see a deer, kill it, then to realize that you shot a buck with 4 points on one side and a cow horn on the other side! I suggest a 4-16 scope at the bare minimum. There is a world of difference in the top end 16x on the B& L 4200 and the 14x on the Leupold 4-14x50mm that I have. You would not think that there would be that much difference but there is.

Best of luck to you in your quest for your long range deer rifle...it is a life long passion with you learning what type of gun/scope fits you the best!

Remember, practice, practice, practice!

 

[Fiftydriver]

Keithcandler,

First off, welcome to LRH, good to have you here.

You give pretty good advice on the topic. Just had a couple questions though, could you please list the loads you are using in the 257 Wby and 7mm STW to reach the performance levels you listed. I would be very interested in that information.

I mean, I have loaded for alot of 7mm STWs and they all topped out at around 3500 fps with the 140 gr bullets. Some as low as 3450 fps with max loads using Retumbo which is the best powder I have found for this case.

The 7mm RUM is only a 3550 to 3600 fps round when loaded to the hilt with a 140 and generally it rarely breaks 3550 in a 26" barrel. Lazzeroni only lists 3750 fps with his big 7.21 Firebird with the 140 gr pills and thats with a 27" barrel.

On the 257 front, The Wby will safely handle 3600 to 3650 fps with a 100 gr pill and 3300 to 3350 fps with the 115 gr pills in a 26" barrel but I have yet to see one get within 150 fps of the velocity your listing with either bullet weight.

I have built a half dozen 257 STW rifles this last year with barrels from 26 to 30" and with the 100 gr pills, they will hit 3800 fps in a 26" pipe, around 3900 fps in a 28" barrel and 3950 to 3975 fps in a full 30" pipe.

With the 115 gr bullets, the 257 STWs will hit 3500 fps in a 26" pipe, just shy of 3600 in a 28" and around 3650 in a full 30" barrel.

These are all out of 3 groove Lilja barrels.

I have just never seen a 7mm STW or 257 Wby come anywhere near the performance levels you list without hitting +75,000 psi level loads. And even then, the primer pockets would be totally blown at these levels.

No flame here, just wondering what loads and barrel you are using to reach these performance levels.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[keithcandler]

Well, I know how anemic the loads are for most of the 7 STW's, I started off with a factory 7 STW...what a disappointment. I start off by desingning a reamer for the brand of brass that I want to be shooting...min spec, just like it would be for a benchrest Cartridge. The key is to have a chamber where the gases are trapped behind the bullet instead of blowing out around the bullet before the bullet gets seated good in the bbl. Email for tips on how to desing a reamer to get 100-150 fps more out of your cartridge. In my brother's 27" 7 STW Pacnor made on my reamer, his load is 88g of IMR 7828 with PMC brass and a 215 primer bullets seated to touch the rifling shooting 140g Nolser Combined Tec bullets while he is fireforming the brass necked down from 300 Weatherby brass. The velocity out of his rifle is 3850 shooting clover leaf groups at 100 yards. He has killed 12 deer with this combo, all one shot kills. He killed a 325 lb white tail In Kansas at 460 yards, dropped him in his tracks. I have two 7 STWs made on this reamer, one gun is a 26" fluted Pac Nor on a Rem SS action, Fajen Laminated stock (unfired), and the other a Re-chambered Rem SS Sendero bbl that started life as a 7 STW now 25" long. I bought the "stock" 7 STW SS Sendero as a used rifle and had it re-chambered just for grins to see what it would do. I have fired about 230 rounds through this used re-chambered bbl working up loads with various powders and bullets. This used SS Sendero bbl shoots the 140 Combined Tec Bullets at 3650 shooting 1/2" groups using Win brass, 215's, 85g of IMR 7828, bullets seated to touch the lands. I have a new unfired SS Sendero bbl for this gun that I have yet to fire. I could see in this bbl before it was rechambered that the lands were tapered slightly from prior shooting, hence the loss in velocity. The first rifle built on this reamer was built on a SAvage for a friend. He put a 27" hart #5 contour. His fireforming load is 85g of R#22, fed 215, shooting the old Nosler 120g Solid base at 3850 fps, bullets touching at 100 yards.

Concerning the 257 Weatherby, I have known of many 257 Weatherby's that have min spec reamers with zero freebore. They all get 3750-3850 fps with a 100g bullet shooting 71.5g-72.0 of R#22, fed 215, with extreme accuracy, this one is a no brainer.

Good luck on your long range shooting!

 

[Fiftydriver]

Keithcandler,

Building correct dimensioned throats on reamers is no secret to getting higher velocity as well as longer throat life but I still feel you are far over safe working pressure if you are actually getting these velocities. ALso you listed 26" barrel lengths not 27" which would not mean much but still not what you listed.

And with the 257, 3800 fps with a 100 gr pill is a very fast load in the Wby. The Wby freebore chambers will produce equal velocities the a tight and short throated match chamber. Hell this was the only reason they were used, to allow more powder to be crammed into the case for higher velocity.

Why did you use 300 Wby brass? This stuff is soft. Good quality but very soft and with this level load your case life much be very short.

Again, all the 7mm STW rifles Ihave built and developed loads for were all true match spec throats and chambers, no different then what you are using, I simply do not understand where you come up with an extra 300 fps in the 7mm STW and 257 Wby.

To each their own I guess.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Guest]

Fifty,
I can't believe you passed on a chance to introduce him to the .257 AM....

 

[keithcandler]

I have both 27" and 26" in the 7 STW's, sorry for the mix ups.

We are shooting 300 Weatherby brass made by PMC (really tough brass) and Winchester 7 STW brass that is pretty tough also, it's the Rem brass in the 7 STW that is really junk due to how soft it is.

I use an Ohler 35P to check velocities.

I use zero freebore on both the 7 STW and the 257 Weatherby with a 0.0005 over bullet dia throat with 1 1/2* leade angle. Reamer's base is matched with the particular brand of brass to aid in controling expansion at the webb.

In my brother's 7 STW upon fireforming the PMC 300 Weatherby Mag, the cases only have to be neck sized and that is at 3800-3850 fps, 140g NosWin Combined Tec bullets out of his 27" bbl.

I'm shooting Winchester brass in my 7 STW for a comparison, and I shoot the brass 5+ times before the primer pockets start to get loose on 3 out of 10 cases. I full length size every other firing using the Winchester brass.


In my buddy Dave's 257 Weatherby, 30" Hart with a 12 twist chambered with my reamer, he is shooting the 100g Sierra BT and 100g Sierra Match at 4000 fps with very low std Deviation using the same load that I am, 71.5g of R#22, fed 215 with outstanding accuracy. He measures velocity with a Pact Professional. Getting 3800 out of a 100g bullet with a zero freebore, 0.0005 over bullet dia throat chamber is a no brainer for sure, it just works. The same load in my friend's Mark V is 3650 due to to the 0.300 freebore.

I am getting 3600fps out of my custom 257 Weatherby with the 115g Ballistic tips using 68.0g of R#22 with the same load getting 3350 in the std Weatherby Mark V.

I bought out all of PMC's 257 Weatherby brass two years ago. I sold it on ebay, and ran into many, many people that were shooting zero freebore 257's. 100g bullets running 3750-3850 were the norm, and 85g bullets running 4150 are the norm out of 26" bbls. Almost everyone that I was talking to was loading R#22 with about the same powder charge(71.5g-72.5g) in the 100g bullets. There were a variety of powders being used with the 85g bullets. One fellow was shooting the 75s at 3200+.

The PMC brass Rockwell'd out at 13% harder than Norma brass, which is very soft.

I don't know what the 257 would do with Weatherby brass, since all I use is the PMC brand. I just thought that some of the long range guys might like to read of the ballistics of these two cartridges. The 257 Weatherby in a Sendero weight gun and muzzle break is a ***** cat to shoot. The 7 STW in the same weight gun with a muzzle break has to be gripped and held pretty tight, kicking about like a 25/06.
With the 257, you will see your shots on the animal every shot. With the7 STW, if you are gripping the gun right, you will see the hit.

When I started working up loads with the 7 STW here is how I did it, not knowing anything about the cartridge:

I loaded one round and one round only of the following to establish a Max load for the rifle, then went back and shot 3 shot groups fireforming PMC 300 Weatherby cases in a 27" Pac Nor 3 Groove bbl:

76g of IMR 7828 HUGE GROUPS & SLOW
77 "
78 "
79 Cases not fully fire formed: listed as max load in book!
80 Cases not fully fire formed
81 Not accurate about 1"
82 "
83 "
84 "
85 "
86 "
87 OK to load- two bullets touching, third barely out
88 OK to load- three bullets touching 3850 fps
89 Max in this rifle, minor case head scuffing, very slight
bolt lift increase @ 3900 fps, slightly compressed load

I went throught the same procedure with the Custom Savage to work up a load with the 120g Nosler Solid base bullets in std Rem 300 Weatherby brass fireforming at 3800. 3900 was max with #22, but minor case head scuffing was occuring and 2 out of 10 primer pockets were loose (Rem Brass).

With my "used" 7 STW re-chambered now 25 1/2" long, I did not get the velocity that my brother's new Pac Nor 27" bbl, but accuracy was acceptable. The accuracy load in my bbl is 3650 shooting 1/2" groups using the Winchester brass. There is a Great deal of difference between the PMC and Winchester brass, with the PMC being tougher. I shot one piece of PMC brass 11 times in my brother's rifle, and pockets were still fine. I did have to full length size every other firing.

Later firings produced very tight groups(1" or less) at 300 yards, with 1/2' groups at 200 yards with groups of 3 1/2" at 550 yards.

Another cartridge loading that I was recently working with using very unusual loadings was a custom 25/06 with a min spec chamber,26" shelin bbl with a 12 twist, McMillen stock. I was given specific instructions to use the following data:

Win brass
215 primer
100g Sierra flat base seated to touch lands
63.0g of R#25
I checked the speed at 3650 fps with Ohler 35P
3 shot groups with the bullets touching
brass only had to be neck sized.

117g Sierra flat base touching lands
Win brass
215
58.5g of R#25
3360 fps
.400 group
I consider this a max load for this rifle, about every third shot, I would see slight case head scuffing and increased bolt lift. Also, I think that the 117g bullet is barely stabalized in this twist.

The gunsmith builds these 25/06's for guys in Texas to shoot deer at 500 or so yards.

This load in this gun was very impressive at 300 yards shooting 1 1/2" groups (100g load) with a twitchy wind, I had out 3 wind flags). I gave the rifle back to my friend and he called me last week and had killed a real nice buck at 427 yards by the leica 1200, he was ticked to death! What impressed me about this rifle is that it's lack of recoil with no muzzle break. I thought to myself, "I got to have me one of these!"

There is a gunsmith in Dalton Ga., R. L. Matthews (706-624-9660), that is making a custom wild cat on a 257 Weatherby Improved case that is shooting the 120g bullet at 3550-3700 fps, depending on the bbl...jeez, that would be flat shooting. He is a gunsmith of the highest caliber, and I met several guys that are shooting the caliber. These guys would not shoot anything else, one shot kills, deer dropping right were they are standing.

I hope this may in some way help you on your long range quest. I have just found this board and hope to learn a lot from you guys here. Most of my shooting is limited to shooting deer at 550 and under. Our main problem here in SC is that the hunting is so thick. If a deer runs 100 yards, you may not find him at all, or you may get bit by 4 rattle snakes before you find him. That is why I like to use a cannon with high end optics to try and anchor them right were they are standing.

Good luck!

 

[Fiftydriver]

A 25-06 getting 3650 fps with a 100 gr pill in a 26" barrel.

I think that says it all.

No offense my friend but I still believe you are far past any safe working pressures if you are getting these velocities.

The throat design you use is no different then any other top end custom rifle builder in the country including my self.

I do agree that building the reamer for a specific brand of case will limit expansion to some degree but I will also say you are still dramatically over the 65,000 psi limit weither your seeing the signs in the case or not, the rifle is still having to endure probably +70,000 psi pressure as well as your throat and bore.

But to each his own again, if it works for you thats great but I certainly would not recommend to others that the 257 Wby is a +3800 fps round with a 100 gr bullet or a +3600 fps round with a 115 gr pill.

Likewise, pushing the 7mm STW to 3900 fps in a 27" barrel is flat insane at best even with a 120 gr bullet this is an extremely high pressure load. If your rifles are properly built, you will not feel any increase in bolt life until well past 70,000 psi, non of mine do and many of my customers used to factory rifle will blow primer pockets totally out of their cases because they think judging bolt lift is an accurate way to read pressure, it just is not in a rifle that has beed trued up correctly.

Only thing you are doing is removing an early warning system that is built into the rifles. That is dangerous stuff my friend. Have you even heard of a little thing called "powder detonation." If you knew about this you would not be doing what you are.

Again to each his own but I think your running the ragged edge and asking for a liability problem if you keep pushing these velocities to others.

Just my opinion,

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[thocon]

Just a note,I'm sure BOTH of you are very knowedgeable in your findings so heres a note.First why does it matter how fast a bullet is going?mainly i ask this for two reasons:i have never seen the most accurate load at max pressure or speed,second if one load i shoot hits a inch higher than my last,ican say its shootin faster.So what does that mean,(from my stand point that means i need to aim a little lower or adj my scope).So what i'm gettin at is if i make up a load and it looks good on paper and i'm not showing case problems,i'm shootin it.So i guess i will not buy a crono due to the fact that my best load might be to fast or to slow.Also i've never went over suggested grains of powder,but i;ve read here that many people go as high as 10grains,stupid? maybee,but if there not showing problems,does it matter?Sorry if i butted in or hurt someones feelings,KEEP up the good work. All the fun is over after you find the problem.

 

[dakor]

I have shot many rounds through 7mm STW's and I have hit the 3600 fps mark with a 140 Barnes TSX and 82 grains of R-22. I have also hit the 3780 FPS mark with a 257 Weatherby and a 100 TSX with 74 grains of R-22. Both are factory rifles with 26 inch barrels. Now I will also state that those are the only bullets I have found that give that kinda velocity with safe pressure. As for the poster's original question I would say a 7mm STW would be hard to beat. If you took a 7mm STW with a 30 inch barrel I think you would find that it would run right along side the Allen mag with custom bullets. I mean know disrespect Kirby I truely think your wildcats are good cartridges.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Dakor,

No disrespect taken at all. I know full well what the 7mm STW will do and it is a great round.

Is it a 3900 fps round with a 140 gr bullet in a 27" barrel?

Your load of 82.0 gr sounds very logical to me as a max load in the STW but we are talking 7 grains over your max load.

Again, this is not a performance issue really with me at least, I just hope someone out there does not try to get 3800 fps with their 26" barrel and something really bad happens. THis is all I am saying.

I would like to compares some ballistics though. In a friendly manor of course /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif, What load do you have in a 30" 7mm STW that will drive a .820 B.C. bullet with a S.D. of .337 to a velocity of 3350 fps.

This is a comfortable load in the 257 AM with the 156 gr ULD Rebated Boattail over a top charge of 8700 which is around the mid 90 gr level.

There, I set myself up to get hammered!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I know there are 100 long range rounds that in skilled hands and a good rifle will do amazing things at extreme range. My Allen Magnums are just three more to throw in the pile but for these three calibers, I have never seen anything else that would come close to touching them. And there are very few rounds of any caliber that will out perform them Ballistically. Still, I know full well that its the pilot not the performance that gets the job done.

SO hammer away, I'm ready to take it!!

Again, this is more a safety issue with me. Not a "whos the fastest" issue. My 257 AM is still faster then his 257 Wby load, although not by much /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif!!!

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

Tho,

I agree on the performance issue to be honest.

Personally, I commented because of safety issues. IT is unsafe to drive a 140 gr bullet to 3900 fps in a 27" barrel. I don't care if you have pressure signs or not. To get a bullet that weight to that velocity in a 27" barrel you need X amount of psi. Physics is a funny thing as is velocity.

Velocity is a function of pressure, time and frictional resistance. Given the barrels are all relatively close in frictional coefficent for one true match barrel to another, and if the same bullets are used in each load, there is only one way to increase velocity this much.

Barrels are the same length so the only other variable is pressure. Pressure is also what tears cases and rifles apart when it is not contained.

All I am saying is that while this load may be appear to be totally safe in this rifle, what happens down the road when a case has a defect or a primer has a thin cup. A 65,000 psi gas leads bad enough, a gas leak at 75,000 psi is dramatically different.

I agree, extreme top end pressure loads are generally not the most accurate. That is why I designed cases that offered plenty of case capacity. They produce extreme velocity with high B.C. bullets without needing +65,000 psi pressures which is a standard for modern magnum rounds today.

Good shooting, again I do not care who the king of the hill is, I am concerned with his safety and those that are loading the 7mm STW in factory rifles.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[dakor]

FiftyDriver I agree with you about the 140 going 3800 fps out of a 27 inch barrel that does not add up. I stated that I achived 3600 fps more like 3613 fps to be exact but that was only with a Barnes 140 TSX and that was a top load anything more and the bolt would opened up tight. Now as for your question I shoot 140 Accubonds at 3420 FPS with 85 grains of H-1000, 150 Ballistic Tips at 3350 FPS with 83 grains of H-1000, 160 Accubonds at 3250 fps With 82 Grains of H-1000, and 175 Sierra SPBT's at 3150 fps with 81 grains of H-1000. All out of a Sendero 7mm STW. All loads are safe in my rifle all shoot in the .2's and .4's at 100 yards with three shots. I will also say that I could go probably another grain or two with all loads before I hit pressure sings but when they shoot that well whats the point. I just tried H-1000 in the last few weeks and I am glad I did. It gives good velocity and the best accuracy yet out of this rifle. Now give me a match grade barrel that is 4 inches longer and I would bet I would get another 100 FPS faster then my Sendero. I just talked to Richard from Wildcat Bullets and he is going to have a 7mm Bullet with the same bc or higher as the 156 ULD you have now. Again Kirby I mean disrespect and hell I might even break down and order one of your mags myself. I also would like to thank you for giving me Richard's info it opened up a whole new world to some of my rifles. My point was to the poster that sounds like he is just starting out that a stock cartridge might be a better choice then a wildcat he is going to have to fire form brass and neck case's down and that sort of thing.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Dakor,

Good post and I again agree with you. Your velocities are not eye popping, top end for sure but not unrealistic. The cames made, not by you, of getting 3900 fps in a 27" pipe are flat out insane and I will always think that.

Ya Richard and I have been playing with a 7mm Allen Mag prototype as well. It will top anything the 7.21 Firebird will offer by a fair margin and will be much more user friendly then the smaller caliber Allen Mag rounds.

Still, to get a 7mm bullet to a B.C. of +.800, you will be dealing with a bullet in the +180 gr level, possible 190 gr. You will also need to use a 1-8 twist as well, which is fine, but it will lower ultimate velocity just a bit, probably no more then 50 fps but still.

So given you have a 7mm STW that will produce 3150 fps in a 26" pipe and add another 100 fps for a full 30" barrel, this brings you to the 3250 fps level with a 175 gr Smk. I do not know exactly which jackets Richard will be using in his 7mm ULD heavies but I would bet it will be teh same heavy tapered jacket he is using in the 156 gr .257 and 169.5 gr 270 ULD bullets. This again will drop velocity by 50 fps. If did in the 257 STW and 257 Allen Mag at top loads, simply a thicker jacket issue.

So combine the 50 fps drop compared to the Sierra Mk, along with the drop in velocity from the heavier bullet used along with the tighter twist used and I would predict you would be driving the B.C. bullet to around the 3150 to 3200 fps level at most.

That said, that will still out perform even a 338-378 loaded to the gills with a 300 gr SMK ballistically speaking anyway.

As you have correctly discovered, using Richards bullets will give any round a severe kick in the rear in performance. I would like to say the performance of my Allen Mags are from case design but I would say 50% is simply from the bullets used.

You are right though, comparing different barrels with different personallities, I admit a top end load with a 7mm STW or RUM may well equal my 257 Allen Mag in performance.

Its those **** Wildcat Bullets that gave me away /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!

Have a good one,

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[dakor]

So Kirby you must be the one that came up with the 180 grain bullet in a 7mm because when I asked Richard about it he said the die was already ordered and the bullet was in the works. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I would also like to say it is nice having a conversation with someone who does not get all testy when they are discussing something. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Now I have a question for you. You said you are going back to a Lilja barrel did you find that the Pac-Nor was not up to Par? I know you had to send one back but how is the replacement barrel working out for you?