Ugly extreme spread........now what ?

[freddiej]

Okay, since I have run into this with my own 300 win mag, friend's guns; a few 7MM rem Mags, and various other calibers; I will give you what I do with guns like this. it all comes down to brass prep/brass uniformity. first, clean and resize them after being shot. second, trim them to a set, uniform length. third, ream the necks of the brass or neck turn them. fourth, uniform the primer pockets (depth and flash hole size and location). last weigh them for equal weights. if you see a huge variation in weights they will not ever bring you 3 to 4 FPS in SD. My first ever magnum was a 300 win mag chambered Savage 110. it had a #3 taper, almost pencil barrel. it shot horribly. I had brass from R-P, Win, Win Super, Federal, Privi, Norma, PMC, Hornady, Western, Super Speed, and 2 or 3 other head stamps. this was 50 rounds of brass all together. the brass weights were all over the place. light to super heavy. I had a 400 yard improved cylinder "group" pattern. I started case prepping after emptying all the rounds. for those interested 175 grain Nosler projos, H-1000 powder 1/2 grain under max, Winchester LRM primers. oh and I thoroughly cleaned the barrel which was not that dirty. the pattern at 400 yards was 24"(I wish that was an exaggeration but it was within a bullet diameter of 2 feet). not one of my more "shining" moments. after, cleaning, resizing, trimming, centering the flash hole, neck reaming, and sorting them into 5 groups of 10 by weight. I reloaded them exactly as before and went to the range. the 10 shot sorted groups were varied, one group at 400 yards was just sub 2", three groups were above 2" but sub 3", the last group was a flyer from being 1.25". I fired my rounds one round per 2 minutes for all semi-cold bore shots.
take this for what it is worth. it has worked for me over the last 35 years of hunting and long range shooting. if you are curious; the biggest improvement for your SD's is consistent neck tension between brass, and consistent volume between brass (AKA weight). if you only do two operations those are the ones to do.
Later Tatters it's time to open the shop and call people to come get their guns that I fixed.

 

[nkyshooter]

Apologies in advance if I repeat or contradict anything above as I did not go through all 3 pages of the thread ...

My opinion on the list is that they are not bad ... until the end ... this is usually heat related. I saw you mentioned you did not let them sit in the chamber very long - that is good but it can still have "some" effect ... however, if your ammo was in the sun, that can have very significant impact. Some pdog shooters put their ammo on ice and cover with a towel. I've never gone to that extreme but I do keep it shaded from the sun.

Enjoy the chase to find the actual root issue ... while it CAN be frustrating, it SHOULD be lots of fun

T

 

[WiscGunner]

Lots of good info, fellas !
To the question of neck tension, I'm using a Redding S full length die with the .287 bushing . Loaded the brass measures. 292, so I have .005 tension on the loads I've run so far. I have a .289 bushing I'm going to experiment with also. I dont use the expander ball . I just ground the diameter of the ball down so it doesnt interfere, but it's still the " nut " that holds the decapping pin.
My cases only grow. 0025 after firing and since I'm still firing new brass, I have yet to bump the shoulder. I plan to just bump .0015 .
I measure every powder charge on a beam scale . I'm way too anal about perfection to dump and run with my powder charge.

It is important to keep in mind the OCD powder measuring is sorta unnecessary unless unless you have done all other benchrest brass prep, weight sort, h2o fill, bullet weight sort, bullet dimension sort, etc.

This is the entire reason we look for "nodes".

For instance, the reason I settled upon 41.5gr H4350 in my rifle is that 41.4 averaged 2788fps and 41.6 averaged 2788fps. Putting my charge weight in the middle means that if my charge is slightly light or slightly heavy, I will still have the same velocity.

It is very easy to get side tracked in reloading. We have all been there. Try to focus on what is most important first and work your way down the list of diminishing returns until you satisfy your needs. Anything that goes bang would be fine for deer under 100yrds. PRS at 1000yrds ...try for .5-25" groups but focus on ES under 20. Shooting King of 2Mile...the little details matter more... ALL of them.

You can easily test what is important to you. Load 10 virgin brass and 10 once fired...all else the same and compare. Neck turn 10 compared to 10 not neck turned. Etc.

 

[J E Custom]

Finally bought a chrono to get serious about finding a 500yd deer load for my field rifle. THIS IS ON NEW BRASS . I found a load that shoots great at 100yds considering I'm just fire forming brass and making sure the barrel is broke in right. This string is shots 67 to 77 on a new barrel. Barrel has not copper fouled since round count 20.
Load is 41.8gns of RL16 behind a Berger 130 vld with cci br large rifle primers and Peterson LRP brass (new/unfired). Barrel was cleaned before this string was fired.

2805
2795
2787
2802
2798
2776
2827
2808
2814
2862

The barrel was getting pretty warm on the last 3 shots, but I didnt let any rounds cook in the chamber more than the time it took to chamber , square up in the graph window and squeeze the shot.
Am I looking for good ES too early in the process? Would you hunt for a better load, or relax and play with seating depths till I get the rest of this brass once fired, bumped, and weight sorted ? Oh, its s 6.5 creedmoor

SDs and ES are affected by the load itself most of the time. A good primer, powder and bullet weight will normally give good SDs. A poor combination of these components will result in poor SDs and ES.

I look for SDs of single digit numbers (.00 to .09) sometimes that is hard to find on small calibers and light bullets So they can be in the teens and still shoot well. If a load produces a SD of over .20 I abandon it and look for a different powder or bullet weight. after a good SD is found, it can be improved with subtle changes in primers or seating depth.

Distance doesn't change these numbers, just the amount of error in the POI. The greater the SD and ES spread, the greater the impact error at longer distance. With an es over 40 I would recommend changing powders. Vertical stringing is a sign that you have poor ES.
Horizontal stringing or large group size is an indication of other problems.

When testing a hunting rifle, I prefer to shoot a 3 shot groups And clean the rifle. This allows for it to cool and also requires that each load is tested using the same conditions. It will also show if the barrel needs a fouling shot or not making the cold bore shot the most important.

J E CUSTOM

 

[WiscGunner]

Lots of good info, fellas !
To the question of neck tension, I'm using a Redding S full length die with the .287 bushing . Loaded the brass measures. 292, so I have .005 tension on the loads I've run so far. I have a .289 bushing I'm going to experiment with also. I dont use the expander ball . I just ground the diameter of the ball down so it doesnt interfere, but it's still the " nut " that holds the decapping pin.
My cases only grow. 0025 after firing and since I'm still firing new brass, I have yet to bump the shoulder. I plan to just bump .0015 .
I measure every powder charge on a beam scale . I'm way too anal about perfection to dump and run with my powder charge.

You might want to look at your neck tensions as well. .005 is a bit heavy in my experience. Usually it is recommended to have .001-.002 neck tension. Depends upon neck friction (diameter, thickness, bullet lube, neck cleanliness, intended use)

 

[Dr. Watson]

So, I'm hearing so far that the fact that its a new barrel and new ,unfired, brass that hasn't been sorted for weight or fire formed to my chamber isn't affecting the velocity spread?
Shawnb, I dont have a place to stretch it out in my present situation. I'm gonna have to rely on consistent known velocity and good ballistic data to dial in my DOPE . Hopefully I will find a place to shoot distance before the rifle season for deer comes around in October . Since my only hunting spots are wooded and unlikely to present a shot over 100yds right now, this build is more of a just in case rifle .

My simple advice is to use the data as an indication only.
Your first few rounds I would consider an acceptable ES anyhow ... unless you have a very high end chrono.
More important is to actually shoot at at those kinda ranges... and I mean a lot.

It may be difficult to find somewhere but it's kinda one of those things that's really can't be avoided. I wouldnt consider lining up on something living at 500 yards with theory alone.

And on a side note when you do go to practice shoot 2 rounds from a proper cold bore and that's it.

Anything else is a complete waste of time.

 

[30BR]

I have a pound of h4350 , but I'd like to work the RL16 some more first. The RL16 is suppose to work good in areas where the temps get high like here in central Ga. It usually gives s little bit higher velocities too. I'm well below book max at 41.8 and looking at the velocities I'm getting, there is no problems with going up a little on charge weight. After I get all the new brass fired once, I'm gonna run some velocity ladders to see if there is a good node in there somewhere. Hoping it will be a little higher than where I am now.

Try backing off the powder charge and changing to a magnum primer... Lots of 6mm BR shooters use a CCI 450 igniting Reloder 15... With 16 being a tad slower, you may get more consistent results with the "hotter" (increased brisance) primer..

 

[25WSM]

H4350 is a super stable powder temp wise. My 6.5 creed SD is around 5. If you didn't lube the necks on your new brass that's probably not helping your sd. Plus new brass neck tension is normally not real consistent unless you expand them and run them through your sizing die. Once they are once fired you will have some carbon in the necks for lube and they will all have consistent neck tension. Your SD will come down a lot. Don't get too caught up on SD. ES is more important. Shep

 

[Mc Fraser]

I hope this helps. I never shot more than 3 shots then inlet the barrel cool. After I clean the barrel I shot 3-4 random bullets, I found that some rifle shot different when they are clean vs fired.

 

[TexSavage]

J E Custom, got a question, went out this AM and shot my Sav 12 in 300 WSM, which I reload and have over 1,000 rounds down range. I had some very interesting results dealing with velocity and SD & ES and variances by case manufacturer. I trimmed all cases to trim length, all flash holes uniformed and all cases annealed except for a set of 10 new unfired WW Brass that was just bought. What I did was a comp on 4 types of brass in groups of 10. Shot 5 rounds over a 5 minute stretch, then probably 5 minutes between magazine reloading. Groups were Federal (4 reloads), Winchester Nickel plated (8-10 reloads), Winchester Brass, and Nosler brass (5 reloads). Nosler brass was 25 FPS faster and had lower ES & SD. SD was 5 ES was 9, velocity avg was 2803, all the other groups of brass was SD of 5 and ES in the 15 to 20 range but velocity was 25 FPS slower. The new WW Brass cases in sneaked were 2775 while the group of annealed new WW Bass was 2550 SD was 9 with ES around 15. Used magneto speed, H4831 SC, Fed 215 Mlrp, Berger 215 Hybrid. I knew there could be differences but never thought that much difference with brass. Any thoughts?

 

[5.56×250]

I use a powder lube on the bullets . I brush the inside of the necks with a nylon brush, then roll the back half of the bullet in the lube and tap it on The edge of the container so there is just a light dusting on the bullet and immediately set it in the case and seat it with my forster micro seating die.
To those that asked, I have a cheapo Caldwell chrono. I am very meticulous about firing over the exact same spot and angle , and try to get my shots in under identical lighting. I have alot of experience dealing with chronos from years of tuning and setting up archery gear for my customers and myself. Personally , I've found most to be repeatable and consistent from model to model and brand to brand. They are just very sensitive to lighting and angle . Just my experience . Tuning archery gear for people spending a lot of money in travel, lodging, and entry fees to shoot national level competition that has speed limits for the arrows made me have to gain a good understanding of how to shoot across them consistently. That, or have irate customers that get DQed after spending a couple grand to shoot !

 

[J E Custom]

J E Custom, got a question, went out this AM and shot my Sav 12 in 300 WSM, which I reload and have over 1,000 rounds down range. I had some very interesting results dealing with velocity and SD & ES and variances by case manufacturer. I trimmed all cases to trim length, all flash holes uniformed and all cases annealed except for a set of 10 new unfired WW Brass that was just bought. What I did was a comp on 4 types of brass in groups of 10. Shot 5 rounds over a 5 minute stretch, then probably 5 minutes between magazine reloading. Groups were Federal (4 reloads), Winchester Nickel plated (8-10 reloads), Winchester Brass, and Nosler brass (5 reloads). Nosler brass was 25 FPS faster and had lower ES & SD. SD was 5 ES was 9, velocity avg was 2803, all the other groups of brass was SD of 5 and ES in the 15 to 20 range but velocity was 25 FPS slower. The new WW Brass cases in sneaked were 2775 while the group of annealed new WW Bass was 2550 SD was 9 with ES around 15. Used magneto speed, H4831 SC, Fed 215 Mlrp, Berger 215 Hybrid. I knew there could be differences but never thought that much difference with brass. Any thoughts?

Changing from one component to another can and does normally change the SD, ES and velocity. In the example of case brands, it is a volume issue more than the brand it's self. The less the volume, the higher the pressure and velocity. when you anneal cases, even though you use the same brand, the hardness of different annealed cases to non annealed cases can/will vary.

When looking for SD and es, be sure to shoot the same number of rounds for each load to get a better representation of actual numbers. simply cleaning a barrel will/can change the velocity and ES. I keep all of my brass separate buy the lot# and number of firings and brand. I never mix any components that could hurt my SDs and ES.
Just because one brand is more consistent doesn't mean that there isn't a equal quality with another brand with minor changes to reach the same approximate velocities with the same pressures.

J E CUSTOM

 

[MoaFlat]

 

[JAYgs8163]

Double check your scale for repeatability as well. I've had this issue pop up in the past.