Ugly extreme spread........now what ?

[Deviant]

Finally bought a chrono to get serious about finding a 500yd deer load for my field rifle. THIS IS ON NEW BRASS . I found a load that shoots great at 100yds considering I'm just fire forming brass and making sure the barrel is broke in right. This string is shots 67 to 77 on a new barrel. Barrel has not copper fouled since round count 20.
Load is 41.8gns of RL16 behind a Berger 130 vld with cci br large rifle primers and Peterson LRP brass (new/unfired). Barrel was cleaned before this string was fired.

2805
2795
2787
2802
2798
2776
2827
2808
2814
2862

The barrel was getting pretty warm on the last 3 shots, but I didnt let any rounds cook in the chamber more than the time it took to chamber , square up in the graph window and squeeze the shot.
Am I looking for good ES too early in the process? Would you hunt for a better load, or relax and play with seating depths till I get the rest of this brass once fired, bumped, and weight sorted ? Oh, its s 6.5 creedmoor

Im using RL 17 with the 130 VLD and so far its worked very well for me. I always fire form 100 rounds before I ever start load development to let the barrel speed up and get the brass consistent.

 

[Fred G Cook]

Finally bought a chrono to get serious about finding a 500yd deer load for my field rifle. THIS IS ON NEW BRASS . I found a load that shoots great at 100yds considering I'm just fire forming brass and making sure the barrel is broke in right. This string is shots 67 to 77 on a new barrel. Barrel has not copper fouled since round count 20.
Load is 41.8gns of RL16 behind a Berger 130 vld with cci br large rifle primers and Peterson LRP brass (new/unfired). Barrel was cleaned before this string was fired.

2805
2795
2787
2802
2798
2776
2827
2808
2814
2862

The barrel was getting pretty warm on the last 3 shots, but I didnt let any rounds cook in the chamber more than the time it took to chamber , square up in the graph window and squeeze the shot.
Am I looking for good ES too early in the process? Would you hunt for a better load, or relax and play with seating depths till I get the rest of this brass once fired, bumped, and weight sorted ? Oh, its s 6.5 creedmoor

I'm shooing sub .5 @ 100yds with 140's, 40.5 H4350 and Fed Match Primers in both small and large Primer brass. Didn't get there until I went to the H4350.

 

[Bret GRAVELINE Graveline]

Yes you are a little early, I got my first chronograph about 1980 had to shoot thru and replace screens i have gone over a dozen since then, I've been both surprised and disappointed ever since, your es is not horrible but certainly not idea, a few things that may help or at least to look for, sort 5 or 10 case's by weight after forming to run your test, i always ran two test of five wallowing the barrel to cool inbetween, try a different lot of primers or a different brand, same with the powder, I usually did not get to serious about final results until I had about 200 rounds through a barrel,

 

[RYEWSKY25284]

Finally bought a chrono to get serious about finding a 500yd deer load for my field rifle. THIS IS ON NEW BRASS . I found a load that shoots great at 100yds considering I'm just fire forming brass and making sure the barrel is broke in right. This string is shots 67 to 77 on a new barrel. Barrel has not copper fouled since round count 20.
Load is 41.8gns of RL16 behind a Berger 130 vld with cci br large rifle primers and Peterson LRP brass (new/unfired). Barrel was cleaned before this string was fired.

2805
2795
2787
2802
2798
2776
2827
2808
2814
2862

The barrel was getting pretty warm on the last 3 shots, but I didnt let any rounds cook in the chamber more than the time it took to chamber , square up in the graph window and squeeze the shot.
Am I looking for good ES too early in the process? Would you hunt for a better load, or relax and play with seating depths till I get the rest of this brass once fired, bumped, and weight sorted ? Oh, its s 6.5 creedmoor

Have you weighed each one of your cases after case prep was done? Did you water test your cases? See which ones are the heaviest? Sometimes cases will all measure perfect but have thick walls. Water testing them will give you an accurate case capacity. If you done this, move on to a different powder.
good luck..........aim small-miss small.

 

[Howland]

ES and SD are primarily affected by neck tension, variation in case capacity, case fill, powder and on rare occasions primer, pretty much in that order of importance.

This right here.

Unless I missed it, you didn't mention whether you are using a neck bushing to control tension and what size or using the expander ball that came with the die set or a custom mandrel.

I had always just used the expander ball (since I repented of my LCD only ways ) and had good results until my current project. If you think ES of 86 is bad, mine was 240+!

But it was only with a very low charge weight (the most accurate, otherwise I wouldn't be messing around there) and only until I tried the deepest seating depth batch, then it was normal again. My theory is that there wasn't enough neck tension to generate enough resistance to generate the pressure for consistent ignition.

By trial and error using multiple bushings and mandrels, this one just likes .003" interference fit with that neck wall thickness and degree of work hardening. ES is much more acceptable.

FWIW, I would not give much credence to an SD calculated from a single sample size of ten. I would start by taking a hard look at your neck sizing to see where you might get greater uniformity. The observed ES you are seeing is real.

 

[Dell]

Finally bought a chrono to get serious about finding a 500yd deer load for my field rifle. THIS IS ON NEW BRASS . I found a load that shoots great at 100yds considering I'm just fire forming brass and making sure the barrel is broke in right. This string is shots 67 to 77 on a new barrel. Barrel has not copper fouled since round count 20.
Load is 41.8gns of RL16 behind a Berger 130 vld with cci br large rifle primers and Peterson LRP brass (new/unfired). Barrel was cleaned before this string was fired.

2805
2795
2787
2802
2798
2776
2827
2808
2814
2862

The barrel was getting pretty warm on the last 3 shots, but I didnt let any rounds cook in the chamber more than the time it took to chamber , square up in the graph window and squeeze the shot.
Am I looking for good ES too early in the process? Would you hunt for a better load, or relax and play with seating depths till I get the rest of this brass once fired, bumped, and weight sorted ? Oh, its s 6.5 creedmoor

Now that you have a chrono, I'd start with a minimum 10-12 round ladder test. I can tell you the ladder tests have worked great for me. Find that flat spot on your velocities and begin playing with bullet seating depth from there. I can tell you from experience you will need to be METICULOUS in your reloading technique for the 10 round ladder test to work. I use once fired, weigh sorted Lapua brass, bump the shoulders .003 and size the necks down .002.
For a good in depth article on the ladder test, go to the 6.5 Guys website or google 10 round ladder test 6.5 Guys. I've been doing this test for several months and have found that once you find your velocity sweet spot any of the good recommended powders will work at the velocity your rifle likes. I worked up two loads for two different precision rifles last week (a 6.5 and a .308) when all was said and done both had single digit extreme spreads and shot well within half MOA at 100. The lower your ES, the better you will find your groups as you increase yardage. I start my ladder testing with a .015 Bullet jump then play with different seating depths after I find my velocity flat spot. Anyway, this is what works for me. Good luck! Hey, if it was easy, wouldn't be near as much fun!

 

[Jrainey]

Finally bought a chrono to get serious about finding a 500yd deer load for my field rifle. THIS IS ON NEW BRASS . I found a load that shoots great at 100yds considering I'm just fire forming brass and making sure the barrel is broke in right. This string is shots 67 to 77 on a new barrel. Barrel has not copper fouled since round count 20.
Load is 41.8gns of RL16 behind a Berger 130 vld with cci br large rifle primers and Peterson LRP brass (new/unfired). Barrel was cleaned before this string was fired.

2805
2795
2787
2802
2798
2776
2827
2808
2814
2862

The barrel was getting pretty warm on the last 3 shots, but I didnt let any rounds cook in the chamber more than the time it took to chamber , square up in the graph window and squeeze the shot.
Am I looking for good ES too early in the process? Would you hunt for a better load, or relax and play with seating depths till I get the rest of this brass once fired, bumped, and weight sorted ? Oh, its s 6.5 creedmoor

My question would be , did you by chance measure your necks before and after seating the bullets?
Me, I've never put much stock in Es of brand new brass. I start paying attention to that after 1st firing , and after the brass has been through my dies.

 

[skipglo]

Finally bought a chrono to get serious about finding a 500yd deer load for my field rifle. THIS IS ON NEW BRASS . I found a load that shoots great at 100yds considering I'm just fire forming brass and making sure the barrel is broke in right. This string is shots 67 to 77 on a new barrel. Barrel has not copper fouled since round count 20.
Load is 41.8gns of RL16 behind a Berger 130 vld with cci br large rifle primers and Peterson LRP brass (new/unfired). Barrel was cleaned before this string was fired.

2805
2795
2787
2802
2798
2776
2827
2808
2814
2862

The barrel was getting pretty warm on the last 3 shots, but I didnt let any rounds cook in the chamber more than the time it took to chamber , square up in the graph window and squeeze the shot.
Am I looking for good ES too early in the process? Would you hunt for a better load, or relax and play with seating depths till I get the rest of this brass once fired, bumped, and weight sorted ? Oh, its s 6.5 creedmoor

I would use H4350 (41.5) try again

 

[5.56×250]

Lots of good info, fellas !
To the question of neck tension, I'm using a Redding S full length die with the .287 bushing . Loaded the brass measures. 292, so I have .005 tension on the loads I've run so far. I have a .289 bushing I'm going to experiment with also. I dont use the expander ball . I just ground the diameter of the ball down so it doesnt interfere, but it's still the " nut " that holds the decapping pin.
My cases only grow. 0025 after firing and since I'm still firing new brass, I have yet to bump the shoulder. I plan to just bump .0015 .
I measure every powder charge on a beam scale . I'm way too anal about perfection to dump and run with my powder charge.

 

[5.56×250]

I'm shooing sub .5 @ 100yds with 140's, 40.5 H4350 and Fed Match Primers in both small and large Primer brass. Didn't get there until I went to the .H4350.

I'm getting sub .5 with the load in question. In fact, I think it will shoot close to .25 for 5 shots if I can get a calm day to test. Check out post#22

 

[Pointman]

WHile developing a load, I will do 2 5 shot strings then let the barrel cool. It's not so bad with my 6.5 but my 338 LM really gets warm so I employ a chamber chiller during the cool down time. I have noticed on both of these rifles, that my first 2 "cold" shots group very tightly at one impact point but the group will open a bit as ithe barrel heats up. Since you're not going to shoot a whole lot of rounds deer hunting, personally I'd be more interested in the "cold shot" data and groupings.

 

[WiscGunner]

I agree with what other have said regarding neck tention/brass prep. If neck length is not uniform you will have variations in neck holding strength even at the same neck diameters. Also using a mandrel to uniform necks tends to be more consistent than expander balls in a sizing die.

I personally think neck turning should be further down the list of priorities when looking for a good load. Especially with quality brass.

Granted I reload with once fired Prime/Norma brass but have no need to neck turn to get my SD's into the single digits and ES's below 15

My loadup is 41.5gr H4350, CCI BR2, 140eldm 2788fps avg, ES 11, SD 4.74 measured with a Magnetospeed V3. Consistently under .25" 5 shot groups. 1:8 twist 5r Bartein barrel chambered at Patriot Valley Arms

Prime/Norma brass cleaned in SS media ( 200pcs at a time to avoid excess tumbling/neck peening) sized in Forster Coax with Forster sizing dies (ball removed), trimmed to length in Giraud trimmer, opened with Sinclair .263 mandrel, primed on Forster Coax. Seated with Forster Micrometer die to 2.210 BTO (.02 off the lands). Groups shrink further off the lands but I figure this helps compensate for throat erosion as the jump increases.
Measuring done with Mahr digital calipers and Hornady comparitor kit. No neck turning, no primer pocket uniforming, no flash hole deburring, no brass weight sorting. Powder is thrown on an RCBS Chargemaster running on an APC battery backup for consistent voltage (big help)

It is also important to remember to use consistent pressure in seating your bullets. Getting lax here will give you some erratic results as well. I lean into my Forster to insure consistency.

I don't worry about group size or barrel temp when looking for velocity as long as my firing rate is fast. When doing group testing, I keep the round count under 3 because barrel mirage in my scope start to affect my groups after 4-5 rounds through my medium palma barrel.

The other big thing I would look at through is your chronograph. You haven't mentioned what it is. Optical chronographs are very finicky, especially cheep ones! This why Magnetospeeds and LabRadars are so popular. If you know someone whom you can borrow a Magnetospeed from to test your loads, I would highly recommend it. Although, very accurate, they too can have issue if sliding around under recoil as accentuated by pencil barrel profiles.

If you have taken short cuts in prep, measuring and equipment, just give up looking for good data and get 200 rounds burnt through your barrel. Then be meticulous so you can be confident in your data.

 

[MRROGERS1]

Now that you have a chrono, I'd start with a minimum 10-12 round ladder test. I can tell you the ladder tests have worked great for me. Find that flat spot on your velocities and begin playing with bullet seating depth from there. I can tell you from experience you will need to be METICULOUS in your reloading technique for the 10 round ladder test to work. I use once fired, weigh sorted Lapua brass, bump the shoulders .003 and size the necks down .002.
For a good in depth article on the ladder test, go to the 6.5 Guys website or google 10 round ladder test 6.5 Guys. I've been doing this test for several months and have found that once you find your velocity sweet spot any of the good recommended powders will work at the velocity your rifle likes. I worked up two loads for two different precision rifles last week (a 6.5 and a .308) when all was said and done both had single digit extreme spreads and shot well within half MOA at 100. The lower your ES, the better you will find your groups as you increase yardage. I start my ladder testing with a .015 Bullet jump then play with different seating depths after I find my velocity flat spot. Anyway, this is what works for me. Good luck! Hey, if it was easy, wouldn't be near as much fun!

^^^^ This

Your virgin Peterson shoulders are most likely shorter than your chamber (I only use Peterson SRP and LRP for my 6.5cr) so that first firing should blow them out to your chamber size.

Since your barrel is new, like the other guys said, you'll want at least 100rd down the tube before you can trust the speeds.

Bump back 2 thou, trim all to uniform length and then get back to load dev. Once your brass is ready I recommend the "OCW method" to find the node of your chosen bullet and powder combo in your rifle. There is LOTS of info on this method and it works amazing.

Once you find your node, shoot groups, find best 5rd group and THEN you can vary your seating depth on that node. You will have the very best load for your rifle with this method.

My go to powder is H4350 (RL17 is a close second but just doesn't shoot as well) Peterson SRP brass, CCI #41 and Berger 140 VLD Hunting. I have found I can pick up more speed with the Peterson LRP but I don't need it for the 140's as the middle node shoots amazing (.25moa) so not chasing speed. I use the LRP for my 100gr varmint loads.

*What chrono do you use?

 

[Dylan Pipinich]

I had similar issues with a load development, and after doing everything mentioned above, the culprit was not the load. It was the chrono. There's really no way around it, the best thing you can do is just stretch the barrel and see what it does. I trust that way more than any chrono. When it comes down to it, if you are grouping good enough to tip a deer over at your desired range, then who cares what your ES is?