Meant good shot placement and/or heavier bullets.
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Trying to decide on caliber
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The difference between an increase of .020 as compared to .044 is substantial. I don't think the difference between the 6.5PRC and the 7mm's mentioned is significant enough, your already almost there. Create a broader spectrum. 300WSM.
Firearms, like motorcycles, are not the kind of purchases that need or even should be done, solely on rationality. Do you need one? Or do you WANT one? Are you only going to use factory ammo? Are you going to buy factory ammo for zeroing and range doping then use that brass and strictly go reloaded? What caliber makes your heart beat a tick or 2 faster? What caliber do your hunting buddies already have? Might be handy to have a buddy you can grab a round from. If this 300WM would not have fallen into my lap, I might have gone 280AI, or 6.5 PRC, I dont need all this power for big muleys, but I will put it to good use, bullets on the lighter side moving faster.
wyrshunter1
Active Member
There is nothing wrong with the .30 caliber but I don't get the obsession with it for elk (because of diameter I guess). Per my earlier post the 6.5 loadeed with 156s is going to be comparable very quickly in Energy with both the .300 Mag and and WSM and beat them handily downrange catching up at 300 with the WSM and about 400 with the Win Mag. For the OP to get a better elk gun than what he's got he would have to get the 300 Weatherby, 30-378, RUM, exc. Maybe the .300 PRC.
In every comparison the .270 beats the 30-06, the 7mm-08 beats the .308 exc. The 6.5 PRC (and 7mm Rem Mag) is at least an overall equal to the .300 Win Mag. Yes you can load up the Win Mag with some heavier 210+bullets and max them out to keep up or beat the 6.5 PRC long range in energy and wind drift but you don't shoot as flat at hunting ranges and will want a brake on it at that point so why not get the real thing.
Likewise, something like the .27 Nosler is going to play very well with 160+ bullets and a fast twist with your big .300s with less recoil and a bit flatter.
Think back about every elk you have shot. I have shot all of mine with a .270 and one with a .300 Weatherby but it doesn't matter. You hit the lungs with that 130 .270 and it doesn't come out but it pulverizes the internals and they might drop or if some adrenaline already going run 100 yards. No different with your .300 Weatherby that puts a nice clean hole with a pretty big exit because the animal dies similar. With the .270 you have more internal bleeding and with the bigger bullet you get more bleeding and 2 holes. Has anyone ever lost an elk with a lung or heart shot with a rifle that you know or even had a hard tracking job?
Now there are a couple of shots where bullet construction and FE matter some but honestly how many elk do you know of that have been lost because you hit it in the shoulder or hip with a .270. I can see the argument for quarter shots and penetration perhaps but in real world situations you don't lose elk that way or at least its very rare.
You lose or have to track elk forever on gut shots, pass through shots that don't hit vitals, and extremity shots that may cripple a limb, but don't stop the elk from hobbling to the next county. The gut shots may be worse with a heavier bullet that passes through because that smaller fragmenting bullet tends to go all directions and might get to the liver and cause more internal bleeding or it might not. I think the pass through shots are more common with a bigger heavier bullet.
The craziest case I saw with an elk was a good bull that was hit at about 250 yards with a .300 RUM. It knocked him down like a rock and about a minute later when everyone was off guard he jumped up and ran straight uphill clearing the country. There was about a quart of blood where he fell but he was cooking with almost no blood trail in the snow. It is almost certain he was hit in that area between the lung cavity and the spine and the bullet probably missed the ribs at least on the way in. Now I don't know if things would have been different with my old .270 130 soft point but I do know that bullet would have exploded in there just from experience.
The only experience I have with a bad shot on an elk I have made was a very bad shot I made at about 400 yards on a cow. I hit her in the hip and it broke the bone. I had to track her about a mile and a half all downhill before she laid down and let me get within about 200 yards. The rest of the elk I have shot have dropped just as dead as a deer with the .270. The Weatherby worked great too and it was a quarter shot and a big bull so I'm glad I had it that day.
My dad killed most of the elk in his life with a 25-06 100grain, later a 7mm Rem with 139 grain. He has lately gone with a .300 RUM Bergara with a 26 inch barrel for practicality reasons on his elk hunts. He has a ranch that the elk come down to feed on at night and get up over the top of the mountain to the neighboring property pretty early. He has depredation tags and really gets tired of them eating his alfalfa all year, but he has to shoot them on his property which means long 500+ shots and he doesn't want to chase them to get off his property wounded and the really big .300 mags are the best for that, I will admit. He also doesn't haul that gun around but for a few hundred yards from his Kawasaki Mule. The reason those big bullets are better though is that he uses really high BC stuff like Bergers and ELDXs and pushes them out at 3100--3300 fps. Its the comparable velocities with a bigger bullets and comparable BCs that makes these rounds more devastating and you don't get that in your standard 30s because of velocity loss.
I am not knocking any of the advice or choices. But in actual elk hunting think hard about the scenarios. I am not at all like some of the guys on here that have hundreds of 1 shot kills with whatever rifle they like. I admire those guys but like most of us I am human and have a few misses and a couple bad shot placements. I have hunted enough to have seen quite a bit though and I am very sceptical of the mythical elk that only ran off because they were shot with .264, or .257, or .277 bullet instead of the mighty .30. The elk that take off and run uphill without a blood trail are either gutshot, not hit vitally, or don't have broken shoulders or hips. An elk hit good will go downhill and you will eventually get them. The gut shot ones will go all over the place and take some patience and on rare occasions get lost. I am unconvinced that in most of these circumstances that caliber would have made a difference and I don't believe that at except for the hot .30 or .338 mags. Bullet costruction yes, and that can be debated all day and is counterintuitive at best in some cases.
You lose wounded elk because of bad shooting, difficult shots, knocked off scopes, misranging, and all of the environmental factors that lead to bad shot placement. Confidence, comfort, and familiarity with gun and shooting techniques are probably #1 on this list. Use what you are most comfortable with and practice in real world conditions whether thats a 25-06 or a .338 Lapua with a 30 inch. If you like the Lapua and shoot it just as well it will be the better round with tradeoffs for weight and blast. Maybe it will even save you an elk but it won't if your thinking about recoil or get lazy hunting because of the extra weight and length or get it caught in the scabbard when getting off your horse.
I would like the more experienced elk hunters, guides, outfitters that have more experience seeing wounded elk to weigh in on this and offer a counterview. I just think a lot of this bigger diameter is better or that slower velocities with bigger bullets beats high velocities with medium weight and high BCs just doesn't pan out with the facts.
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Long ago - a 340 WBY Magnum was my timber falling buddy in Oregon's favorite. He was put gas cans on the other side of a canyon and zero in. His best shot - waaay before Long Range became really popular - was 700 yards.. Another guided in Idaho - and was one of the first to really use the .338.
Both really put big boys down - using 225-250 grain Noslers - - with adequate shot placement.
Both really put big boys down - using 225-250 grain Noslers - - with adequate shot placement.
wyrshunter1
Active Member
And that outfitter didn't understand ballistics and energy as I have pointed out over and over again. Your 6.5 PRC can shoot flatter and deliver more energy at 400 yards with less recoil than the .300 WSM with Retumbo and 156s. The .300 Win Mag can hang with it to the 400 yard mark and thats about it. Ditto for a .257 Weatherby or 25-06 AI with a fast twist, 133s, and the right handload. Now if the outfitter is recommending a .30 in a Weatherby or RUM he has a point. But the guy who listens to that advice and brings his .308, 30-06, .300 Win Mag will just fine but he will sacrifice energy real quick and sacrifice bullet drop from muzzle on with unneccessary recoil.
If the outfitter believes in particular bullet that he has seen that he likes or anticipates most shots under 300 yards then those calibers might have an advantage. But to say that a standard .30 offers anything at 400+ yards is just false. In fact, just the opposite is true. That is not to say they aren't perfectly adequate if that is what the hunter has or is comfortable with. The 30-06 is an awesome elk round. Its just that at 400 yards the .270 is much better. Dittos for the .300 WSM vs. the 6.5 PRC. They just aren't as good.
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wyrshunter1
Active Member
While we are talking silliness and trends I have to confront this short action stuff. Its a half an inch. One of the most popular and economical mountain rifles out of the box hunting rifles is the Tikka. It uses the same action for long and short.
With the exception of the .308 family Shorts are also larger in diameter. You have 2 or 3 in the magazine compared to 4 or 5 with anything based off the 30-06 and .308. The way I grew up meat hunting and shooting with animals on the move, across canyons without rangefinders the extra 2 rounds made a difference and I still like that.
There is no evidence that there is an inherant accuracy advantage at least on the hunting front with a short. The bolt throw difference might be measured in 100ths of seconds at best. The weight and length is negligible.
I saw a youtube cartridge comparison from a guy who usually offers a lot of good info. He was doing a deer or pronghorn comparison that the 25-06 clearly should have won easily based on the calibers he was comparing. He eliminated it out of hand based on it basically being outdated and long action. Blew my mind.
With the exception of the .308 family Shorts are also larger in diameter. You have 2 or 3 in the magazine compared to 4 or 5 with anything based off the 30-06 and .308. The way I grew up meat hunting and shooting with animals on the move, across canyons without rangefinders the extra 2 rounds made a difference and I still like that.
There is no evidence that there is an inherant accuracy advantage at least on the hunting front with a short. The bolt throw difference might be measured in 100ths of seconds at best. The weight and length is negligible.
I saw a youtube cartridge comparison from a guy who usually offers a lot of good info. He was doing a deer or pronghorn comparison that the 25-06 clearly should have won easily based on the calibers he was comparing. He eliminated it out of hand based on it basically being outdated and long action. Blew my mind.
Get the 300WSM and load up some 200 grain pills.
I'm not sure what planet you're shooting a 6.5 prc and beating a 300 wm? You keep writing these novels maybe trying to convince folks but a 156 @ 3000 is not gonna beat a 215 @ 2880 in ft lbs out to 1000 yds?..Im sure I'll have qtr ton more punching power at 800 to 1000 yds. It can't do the damage that will occur at any range . I'd much rather get shot with needle going 4000 fps than a 58 cal 500 grain maxi ball going 1500 fps. Terminal ballistics 101. I love small calibers but there's a time and a place. Bigger holes are harder to plug. Bigger cal, more tissue damage. Elmer Keith proved this philosophy time and time again. Start shooting animals with 30 cal and see what happens. They die quickly. I shot a 25-06 for 20 years and killed some bull elk with it. No blood trails. That 120 grain partition went thru but sealed up lickety split. Not the case with 30 cal esp 338 or 35 whelen. I've done far more tracking on elk shot marginally with 6mm, 257, 6.5's then I care to remember. They are adequate but shot placement is more critical. 20 years of guiding and watching 100 of animals get killed shows the facts. The proof is in the pudding. BTW my daughter killed her elk last year with my 280 AI 175 elite hunter. One shot. Went 20 yds and tipped over. That rifle has a brake and kicks like 243. She shot the biggest caliber she could shoot well. Lastly I have a 6.5 Creed and 6.5 PRC. Excellent deers rifles. Dedicated elk rifle...not for me.
Jnm300ultra
Well-Known Member
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Out of the 3 my choice would be the 300 WSM. My 2 main hunting rifles are a 280 Ackley and a 300 win mag. My buddy dumped a nice bull elk with his 280 Ackley with 168gr Berger at 375 yards it will work. I just like how simple and effective the 300 Winchester Mag is for elk. Best of luck with your caliber choice.
Jason
Jason
wyrshunter1
Active Member
I was comparing the 180 Nosler Partitions that seem so popular and its straight off the Hornady Ballistic calculators. I have a .300 Win Mag and you are right. The Hornady ELDXs 212s look good with Retumbo but their BC is still below the 156s with a 250 loss in muzzle velocity. I will run the numbers on it but the .300 won't be king like you think although I'm sure it will maintain the energy advantage out to all relevant hunting distances and probably to 1000 yards. Of course it gives up moderat drop at hunting distances to do that but with rangefinders that isn't a huge deal.
Yes if you put a heavier bullet into an animal at the same velocity with similar bullet construction it is going to do more damage. Put a comparitively similar lighter bullet at a higher velocity and the damage is going to equal out as the velocity spreads widen. Now that depends a lot on bullet construction and how they open up at different velocities and what they do and there is some debate there. Bigger caliber alone does not equal more tissue damage. You are making the same argument that the old timers made against even the .30 calibers in the 40s-50s about caliber diameter and bullet weight if you read PO Ackley's writings from the same era. Of course Elmer Keith and Jack O' Connor had this same debate for years.
All but one elk I have shot with my 270s 130s has dropped on the spot. ( am switching to 145 ELDXs for elk loads though). The one I tracked was a bad shot but it broke the hip and was an easy track downhill. I haven't tried the PRC. Don't know how that 156 will do. The elk I shot with the .300 Weatherby was a 150 Ballistic tip atabout 3600 fps. Worked great. Never seen an issue with the 7mm 139s at 3200.
You are not wrong on what big .300s will do. Great caliber in the Weatherby or RUM. Work tremendous for elk in the lighter cartridges too. The 280 AI is a great caliber. I appreciate the story on your daughter because terminal effectiveness is the biggest question I have had with the elite hunter. I am using the 156 in my PRC and am really excited because I have a 25-06 AI 1:7 barrel coming for the 133s which ballistically with the velocities you can shoot them with the AI or Weatherby are about as good as you can get and its kind of nostalgic as my grandpa wildcatted that in the 1950s and shot innumerable deer and elk with it, although in the old 100 grain spitzer although I agree that there are better elk bullet choices that what he was using. It was kind of a one gun era.
I appreciate the response and we may just have to at least narrowly agree to disagree. I would guess that we are comparing a lot of apples to oranges. You have more experience than me as an elk guide for sure and I respect what you are saying and the point of my "novels" was to start a debate and get some feedback. I really don't think we disagree much though other than the idea that caliber alone overcomes an energy edge created by velocity.
And as a concession to your point when I hunt the areas around Yellowstone which I will finally be able to do again as I am in a position to use horses, I am taking the .300 Win Mag with the 212s at the minimum or investing in a RUM with the 212s. Just extra peace of mind to avoid potentially unneccessary tracking and I will gladly give up some drop in favor of that extra penetration and muzzle energy if heaven forbid I had to use it in the 1-10 yard range if you know what I mean.
I also note that your pattern is identical to my dads. He started with a 25-06 and now shoots a .300 RUM for specific reasons I explained for elk. My comparisons are apple to apple types and I think the .30-06/ .300 WSM comparisons with the .270 are accurate for example. I think that if the bullets hold up. the .257s 133s and 6.5 PRC 156 compare very well to the .300 Win Mag in 180s and offer the low recoil flatter shooting advantages to the bigger .308 bullets in these calibers. Those aren't exactly the traditional .243s or light .257s.
I also have no disagreement whatsoever to your thoughts on the .280 AI and I think the 7mms and fast twist .277s might be where we kind of converge a bit on the reality of both of our positions.
Dooner
Well-Known Member
Just a quick comparison here. With a 45 degree cross wind, and 600 yrd shot…. My 264 Win Mag, shooting a Berger 156gr EOL, zeroed at 200 yrds, will have 1778 ft lbs, a 58" drop, and 12"of wind drift. A 6.5 PRC should be very similar. The 300 PRC, with the same zero, shooting the Hornady factory 212gr ELD-X, at 600 yrds, will have 2251 ft lbs, a 62" drop, and a 12" wind drift. So the difference between the two is ~478 ft lbs of energy in a bullet with 56 grs of more material, with a 6.8% increase in drop. Besides stabilizing the longer, high bc 30cal bullets, the 1:8 twist in my 300PRC should also do well with the longer 30cal Hammers that I want to shoot.
