Time to eat crow

[ENCORE]

I pulled the top shot but, after scope and barrel removal, its back.......... with T7M pellets gun)

 

[b.kleynhans]

Snazzy shooting there Encore !

 

[ATH]

I've NEVER of an Ultimate Firearms muzzleloader blowing up, sending the shooter or bystanders to the hospital.

Well, let's be fair. #1, there's not a very large sample size of them out there. #2, calling smokeless MLers dangerous because you hear of one blow (and if it is a particular case I'm thinking of I am very, very skeptical of the circumstances) ignores the fact that SCORES of cartridge guns blow every year because people do stupid things at the reloading bench. Well, some of those people buy/build smokeless MLers too and do stupid things with them too!.

I'm aware of many fully documented cases of smokeless guns surviving double charges or shooting the ramrod with nothing worse than a bulged barrel (if that). One would have to do something incredibly stupid to blow one.

When someone double-charges a gun...ANY gun...you can't blame the gun for the result. I am aware of BP guns that have blown or shot the nipple into someone's face too. If someone double-loaded an Ultimate I have my doubts the outcome would be entirely positive. Given the price point, there is some inherent degree of selection for people who are serious about it and less likely to know little about what they are doing.

It does not surprise me that Remington did not go smokeless. Savage went there and exited. It is inherently more complicated and the average hunter....even those with the wallet deep enough to afford that gun...don't want to deal with the complexity in a ML.

 

[ENCORE]

More than had the chance and still have two quotes. However I didn't want smokeless, can't hunt with it here anyway. I don't want the choice of 3 bullets and I surely don't feel like duplexing loads. I need something that goes bang when its 0°F and I'm hunting in a snow storm. Oh one more thing, I've NEVER of an Ultimate Firearms muzzleloader blowing up, sending the shooter or bystanders to the hospital.

Well, let's be fair. #1, there's not a very large sample size of them out there. #2, calling smokeless MLers dangerous because you hear of one blow (and if it is a particular case I'm thinking of I am very, very skeptical of the circumstances) ignores the fact that SCORES of cartridge guns blow every year because people do stupid things at the reloading bench. Well, some of those people buy/build smokeless MLers too and do stupid things with them too!.

I'm aware of many fully documented cases of smokeless guns surviving double charges or shooting the ramrod with nothing worse than a bulged barrel (if that). One would have to do something incredibly stupid to blow one.

When someone double-charges a gun...ANY gun...you can't blame the gun for the result. I am aware of BP guns that have blown or shot the nipple into someone's face too. If someone double-loaded an Ultimate I have my doubts the outcome would be entirely positive. Given the price point, there is some inherent degree of selection for people who are serious about it and less likely to know little about what they are doing.

It does not surprise me that Remington did not go smokeless. Savage went there and exited. It is inherently more complicated and the average hunter....even those with the wallet deep enough to afford that gun...don't want to deal with the complexity in a ML.

Rereading what I posted, I don't think I stated anywhere that smokeless muzzleloaders were dangerous. However there has been more than one that has exploded and caused injury. Of course its blamed on operator error. Most everything operated by a human is considered operator error.

What most shooters don't know, including me to start, there are A LOT of Ultimate Firearm rifles out there and many owners owning more than just one Ultimate. Bob Parker owns two of them himself. What's at issue is, up until Remington came out with the RU, the rifles and ignition system just wasn't discussed much by their owners. Yeah, you get a few YouTube's, mostly from UF but, the owners just don't talk or converse about them much in forums. I'd almost bet a 6-pack of cola, that other than UF, I've probably commented/posted more than just about everyone and that hasn't been that much IMO. The RU brought the "Ultimate" back to the foreground again. With rifles being made for over 10 years, there's a lot of them out there and Ken Johnston has a waiting list.

Its the misunderstanding, lack of knowledge and that these rifles are out of most shooter's "normal". I have two quotes from Bill and Luke, that would have made me OUTSTANDING smokeless muzzleloaders and, capable of shooting BH209. I wanted something different and out of my "norm" and certainly got it. The RU is going to be much cheaper and I can't wait for it to get into the hands of some good shooters, who are not getting paid to endorse it. We'll see if it can compete with the UF rifles.

 

[ATH]

"Oh one more thing, I've NEVER of an Ultimate Firearms muzzleloader blowing up, sending the shooter or bystanders to the hospital."

I did read what you wrote. Any reasonable person would most likely interpret what you wrote exactly as I did. You would not have written about smokeless guns blowing up if you didn't mean something by it.

I'm not going to get in a back-and-forth over it, sometimes people won't mean what they write or don't write quite what they mean.

More options are good. I'm originally from MI and have followed the Ultimate since its earliest days and I wish them well. I've been there done that with things requiring priming modules, however, and especially on a production gun like the Remington I think that's a liability in terms of acceptance. Back in the day I and many others refused to buy a Knight because of their Discs.

 

[RandyWakeman]

I have received a good education why .... and the new Remington Ultimate rifle, ARE NOT DESIGNED to shoot BH209. Also why BH should NOT be shot from them.

The Remington Model 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader was designed and tested with Blackhorn 209. That's straight from John R. Fink | Director Product Management - Rifles
Remington - Marlin - H&R - Nesika Rifles - Dakota Arms.

In fact, the majority of the independent testers, including myself, that were chosen to evaluate the Remington Model 700 Ultimate prior to its release chose to shoot primarily Blackhorn 209.

Remington was long aware of the sub-standard breechplug material used by the Michigan Ultimate, 300 series stainless stainless, and John Fink himself is a long-time BPXpress owner.

Erosion was a problem with T7 in the BP Xpress, with Triple Se7en being more erosive than Blackhorn 209. Remington Engineering redesigned the breechplug, using stronger 416 stainless, a stronger thread design, and instead of using the wrong brass (pistol brass) for Large Rifle Primers, reengineered in shortened .308 brass.

Blackhorn 209 was and is a recommended propellant for the Remington Model 700 Ultimate. Additionally, Western Powders (Blackhorn 209) has had a Remington Model 700 Ultimate in-house for some time now. Remington Model 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader Frequently Asked Questions .

 

[Nomosendero]

The Remington Model 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader was designed and tested with Blackhorn 209. That's straight from John R. Fink | Director Product Management - Rifles
Remington - Marlin - H&R - Nesika Rifles - Dakota Arms.

In fact, the majority of the independent testers, including myself, that were chosen to evaluate the Remington Model 700 Ultimate prior to its release chose to shoot primarily Blackhorn 209.

Remington was long aware of the sub-standard breechplug material used by the Michigan Ultimate, 300 series stainless stainless, and John Fink himself is a long-time BPXpress owner.

Erosion was a problem with T7 in the BP Xpress, with Triple Se7en being more erosive than Blackhorn 209. Remington Engineering redesigned the breechplug, using stronger 416 stainless, a stronger thread design, and instead of using the wrong brass (pistol brass) for Large Rifle Primers, reengineered in shortened .308 brass.

Blackhorn 209 was and is a recommended propellant for the Remington Model 700 Ultimate. Additionally, Western Powders (Blackhorn 209) has had a Remington Model 700 Ultimate in-house for some time now. Remington Model 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader Frequently Asked Questions .

I sent an e-mail to Blackhorn, asking them if they are testing the Remington. They told me that they do have a Rem, but have not really tested it as yet. Since ML season in AR starts in 1 month, I will ride this one out until next year and see how this settles when the smoke clears, I will use my Encore this year.