The “other” hpbt bullets for hunting?

[NEMTHunter]

Interesting for sure, thanks for the feedback. I've heard this before, that ideally the bergers in particular delay fragmentation. I've also heard other not so glowing accounts of this happening earlier than desired or not happening at all (the particular report being that the 180 vld 7mm had its jacket thickened to survive the overly aggressive twist rates used by some in conjunction with very high muzzle velocity, with undesirable terminal changes). I don't know if its fully warranted to assert that the only people who don't affirm their use are those who haven't used them, seems overgeneralized and kind of hard to prove. But I'm glad to hear the input. Any experience with "the other hpbt" bullets mentioned in my original question? Also, in your opinion and experience, would you opt away from tipped bullets in general based on your experience of them being more destructive of meat? Happy hunting!

Hammer bullet will not use tips because they feel from testing they do not let the bullet open and expand with repeatability. @RockyMtnMT

Maybe Steve will chime in and clearly say why they do not use tips in their bullets. Let's just say, If they did there BC would go up. But they are not willing to gain BC by losing performance.

Hammer from all I have read makes a good HPBT bullet. But I feel you are thinking more of lead core with this thread.

 

[bigngreen]

I spent 6 years cutting wild game in one of the largest processing plant in MT, I've cut over 12,000 head of game and meat quality and amounts are huge factors for me, bullets with tips in them destroy more meat hands down, we frequently found the little plastic tips in the meat just under the hide on the entrances.
I LOATHED tipped bullets when cutting meat, the average loss is 8 lbs per hole with a tipped bullet, about half that sometimes less with a Berger being used normally and functioning normally, and less for a Barnes but they have their own weakness in the meat loss department.

The issue with a open tip match is you do have to think about it more, you can drive them beyond their ideal speed or your throat gets so rough your stress the jacket and you can get them to blow but this is not a bullet issue but an operator issue that one just needs to think critically about and solve it. I have loaded thicker jacket open tip match bullet to get more desirable results in a rifle that stressed jacket and it worked awesome with no compromise on meat or lethality.
I had to open up a LOT of animals before I trusted open tip match bullets but I did a lot of testing so I picked the right bullet for the launch and impact velocity then went and had bunches of guys shoot elk with my rifle so I could get a lot of almost controlled conditions to look at then I cut a lot of the animals too

 

[bigngreen]

Open tip match bullets open by hydraulic action inside the tip popping it open many times actually from the top of the lead to the tip then rolling back, this takes time to create the case conditions to open and that's why we see the delay, if one blows up or opens on the hide it's because the jacket has been stressed by either a rough barrel or to much launch velocity. Being that they open by hydraulics the cavity in the nose is an important feature to look at as well as jacket thickness. Look at the 215 Berger, heavy jacket but opens absalutely perfect and consistent every time, the cavity is the key.
You can take the Cauterrucio bullet which ran a pretty open cavity but was a little thinner jacket, they were explosive but still internally not on the hide, the 155 was almost identical to the new 156 Berger but the Berger had a little thicker jacket which I expect will be an amazing bullet to hunt with.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

My problem with a tip is it is a plug in the hole that needs to evacuate before expansion can begin. Once the tip is removed then they very easy to get to open because the evacuated hollow point is rather large. If the bullet tips or yaws after impact before the tip can get out of the way it will be a failure. To me the tip is definitely an aid in bc. It has been marketed as a terminal performance aid. I think it is more of a way to produce clean fronted bullets in the swaging process that is nicer than the old lead tipped bullets for in the magazine and feeding etc. I think they are a step down in the bullets ability to expand properly from the old exposed lead tip bullet.

If you remove the tip from a tipped bullet I guarantee that it will open easier than it does with the tip installed.

My .02

 

[skipglo]

I'd start by buying more guns and ammo lol

LMAO..... usually where it goes anyways!
..

 

[bigbull]

I lost more elk meat by a LOT of pounds shooting Accubonds than I have ever lost with a Berger, I've blood shot elk from the front shoulder to the tail with an accubond while being able to eat withing an inch of the entrance hole of a Berger. Meat loss is exactly why I shoot Berger's or similar bullets, one bullet hole through every animal with minimal blood shot and with maximum lethal damage to internal organs.
It's always obvious when someone has not actually put a Berger bullet on game because they just are not explosive on the entrances, I typically see a little hole and maybe the start of some blood shot right at the ribs and a little around the edges on an exit.
No one would hunt with a bullet that didn't do a better job than the one they were using, so many guys use the Berger's because they flat out work, Berger never marketed as a hunting bullet till guys started telling them they had one of the best hunting bullet out there. The Accubond, Partition, Scirrocco all looks way more meat on the entrance because they expand and drop energy before even reaching the vitals messing up meat, no thanks, I'll keep shoot in Berger's and packaging more pounds of meat!!

big, It is scary to think that Accubonds which are a controlled expansion bonded bullet has a more explosive effect on game than an open point match bullet like Berger, I could not imagine in my wildest dreams that an Accubond will fragment more than a Berger.
I have a bunch of friends that really like shooting Bergers, mostly for their long range ballistic advantages but they have not always been proud of the condition of their harvest, I beg to differ on the eating to within an inch comment you made, I have seen the opposite with huge bloodshot areas. The only hole that I can eat to within an inch is one made by an arrow or some slowpoke caliber like the 35 Rem that I use sometimes. I think manufacturers have done a great job of supplying good controlled expansion bullets that today cover a much larger velocity range than in the past but I do not believe that Berger is one of them, Bergers tend to work better at long range where the velocity has tapered off a bit and this is where most of their kills have been recorded, not many choose those bullets because they hold together better than some type of controlled expansion bullet like Accubonds, most know that the AB are better suited at shorter range impacts because of the broader velocity operating range, that is my opinion.
BB

 

[TwoMore]

I use bergers in 3 or 4 different hunting rifles and non of them bloodshot like people say, even at close range, my 338 rum with a 250 berger is a killer, but no bloodshot meat even inside 100 yards. 7 rum with a 180 and a 7wsm with a 168 all killers, I absolutely concur with bigngreen, even the hole goes in the cooler

 

[bigngreen]

big, It is scary to think that Accubonds which are a controlled expansion bonded bullet has a more explosive effect on game than an open point match bullet like Berger, I could not imagine in my wildest dreams that an Accubond will fragment more than a Berger.
I have a bunch of friends that really like shooting Bergers, mostly for their long range ballistic advantages but they have not always been proud of the condition of their harvest, I beg to differ on the eating to within an inch comment you made, I have seen the opposite with huge bloodshot areas. The only hole that I can eat to within an inch is one made by an arrow or some slowpoke caliber like the 35 Rem that I use sometimes. I think manufacturers have done a great job of supplying good controlled expansion bullets that today cover a much larger velocity range than in the past but I do not believe that Berger is one of them, Bergers tend to work better at long range where the velocity has tapered off a bit and this is where most of their kills have been recorded, not many choose those bullets because they hold together better than some type of controlled expansion bullet like Accubonds, most know that the AB are better suited at shorter range impacts because of the broader velocity operating range, that is my opinion.
BB

It's not the explosiveness of a bullet opening but the timing that causes the blood shot and mess, an accubond will be fully open before even entering the chest which is a huge blunt frontal area and a lot of bullet movement before being in the core. I've seen a mess with a Berger but it was shot placement on the front shoulder which I would say it was equal to any other bullet I would have put into the front shoulder only they get through the shoulder more consistently than I've seen an Accubond due to the exact thing that causes all the blood shot which is huge frontal area before getting into the core, but with a typical behind the shoulder hit they loose little meat compared to a tipped bullet when used correctly, I'm sure you can use something like a 168 in a 300 RUM and blast a hole in something but that's not using the Berger type bullet to it's advantage. I've shot elk back to back using a 140 Berger and a 140 Accubond simply to compare meat loss and lethality, and you literally have to hunt to find the Berger entrance holes, the Accubonds will be jello'ed, it's what first so impressed me with the Berger.
I've seen more issues with Accubonds inside 100 yards on elk than in the mid range because they open way to big and don't shed weight and get small enough to get through an elk shoulder, taking guys out to kill elk on fields the biggest no no is bullets into the shoulder and I've seen many not penetrate that shoulder, I have not seen a Berger of the proper size or a Hammer stopped on an elk shoulder because they have the mass and they will shed that frontal diameter and continue penetrating.
If you want to see an absolute mess shoot an Accubond Long Range, I haven't seen anything blow up and wreck meat like that bullet, they expand low though.
The bull in post 56 has a small bruised spot behind the shoulder a little bigger than a quarter, that's all we lost and is typical of what we see with an open tip match bullet, that was close range too.

 

[North Idaho Hunter]

@bigngreen one thing I like about the Barnes & accubond is immediate expansion on the near side. Makes for easy blood trails.

How's the Berger's blood trail for ya?

Where I hunt your lucky if you get 20 yards of open terrain To search for your animal-most behind the shoulder hits they run 10-75ish yards. That can make for a long day with no blood trail!

 

[bigngreen]

I lost almost all my good performance pics that I had stored on photobucket which I can't recover it seems but I do have the blood trail from the bull that I posted in 56 and a deer at 500 with a Berger 215 from a 308, blood trailing for the blind is what it was.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

With our open tip Hammers we will experience large entrance holes the look like an exit if the impact vel is well over 3000 fps. The impact vel causes them to openmore rapidly as they are entering. No problem with weight retention as it stays the same. They will squish a bit more. The shed petals still stay large so you still don't get the excessive meat damage normally seem with lead core bullets and high vel impacts. Sometimes will see blood that follows the membrane between muscles but it doesn't go into the meat. Just scrape it off the outside of the muscle.

 

[North Idaho Hunter]

@RockyMtnMT that mirrors my results with the Barnes Lrx 127 gr. Launched @ 3300fps. Large entrance wounds with same size exits.

Heck, the deer I killed last year I shot quartering away - less than 100 yards. It had a grapefruit size entrance hole 1 inch inside the ribs taking out 3 ribs! Made for a mess due to popping the paunch. One neat 50 cent exit hole just in front of offside shoulder.

These LRX launched @ this velocity give Great blood trails, however, they cause deep hemorrhaging between the hide and rib cage! Something We've never ran into before.

One elk shot perfect behind the crease there was blood from hind quarter up to front shoulder! While you could save all the meat all the way to the bullet hole you had a lot of scraping of the blood clots off the meat.

It became a pain with 3 elk and 2 deer. It would take quite a bit of time to clean off all the blood from the meat.

None of them took much more then 10-20 steps though so I'm thinking this may just be a trade off.

I can only explain the large amount of blood between the hide and rib cage due to the high velocity impacts.

@bigngreen have you ran into this before?

There is no actual blood shot or lost meat around the wound. Just a ton of blood! Thick clotted, sticky mess!

 

[Calvin45]

With our open tip Hammers we will experience large entrance holes the look like an exit if the impact vel is well over 3000 fps. The impact vel causes them to openmore rapidly as they are entering. No problem with weight retention as it stays the same. They will squish a bit more. The shed petals still stay large so you still don't get the excessive meat damage normally seem with lead core bullets and high vel impacts. Sometimes will see blood that follows the membrane between muscles but it doesn't go into the meat. Just scrape it off the outside of the muscle.

I've observed that blood in the membrane but not the meat with a few different conventional hunting bullets as well, also interestingly in conjunction with higher velocity impact - anything inside of 150 yards with the 270 seems to do that.

 

[bigngreen]

The seam blood shot seems to come from a high energy opening just under the hide, I think, it blows up the blood vessels for a ways and if your bullet does not travel through the vitals in a way that does an immediate blood pressure dump you'll get blood pushed an amazing ways up the seams. Not hard to clean out since you can just seam it out and pick it up with a small boning hook, needless to say I've seen a PILE of it. Most meat cutters will just throw all of it away but with the methods I learned we could very quickly and cleanly removed it all and still retain a high yield of good meat, the hard part is if you combine that with a shoulder hit where you have bone frag through out that jello then you end up losing more meat just because you can't clean it all up.

The worst I personally have done was a cow elk at 250 ish, 140 Accubond starting at 3350 fps, hit high but below spine and it shocked her spine and she dropped, she got up on her front feet and got into a swale where I could not get another shot from my position, she was alive for seconds till I was able to get a little higher, at that time I was running Accubonds in the top of the mag then a 140 Berger at 3300 fps under it so the second hit was a Berger 140 about 6 inches lower and there was a pencil hole in that had just a small bruise around it then her heart was pulped dropping blood pressure like a rock.
Personally unless I'm trying to test a specific shot placement with a certain bullet I always try to shoot them so the bullet detaches the Aorta from the heart which is an immediate pressure drop and they black out within seconds, I worked a little with a vet to try to determine the quickest, surest shot placement and ideally we would drop the blood pressure, collapse the lungs and cut the spinal cord at the same time which is impossible so I go for two of the three with the Aorta and lungs. I see very, very little blood shot for that hit and I think it is because of the nearly immediate drop in pressure and little energy release on the entrance.