The “other” hpbt bullets for hunting?

[NEMTHunter]

The one thing about controlled expansion is you get a deeper wound channel. But it can not make a wound channel as big or devastating as a bullet that opens fast and still passes through. Bergers have done both. I do not shoot in the shoulder I shoot to keep it behind the shoulder.

Some like to say a bullet that passes through is wasted energy. I prefer a pass through with lots of damage from the entrance to exit. That's what kills the best.

 

[MudRunner2005]

berger bullets are established as match type hunting bullets, with special consideration given to ensuring bullet upset and fragmentation for terminal performance.

I'm looking for input, be it opinion, observation, experience, regarding non-berger hpbt match type bullets and their terminal performance, as the general consensus is, well, nonexistent. I know there's lots of discussions out there about this but I want to see if in recent times anyone here has used any of the following and what happened.

Nosler rdf

Hornady hpbt (not eld, just the plain old match bullets)

Sierra matchking.

I have used the Hornady BTHP Match bullets on deer. They work good from my experiences, but being a non-hunting bullet, I'm not going to recommend them.

I use lots of the Nosler Custom Comp bullets, and the RDF is constructed nearly identical, just a different ogive shape for higher BC's. I have NOT, however, used the NCC's on game. There have been several folks on here talk about using them with good results. I would do a search.

I don't use Sierras, so no idea.

 

[Calvin45]

I find it quite disturbing that a match bullet has managed to take a foothold and succeeded in establishing itself as a hunting bullet when conventional orthodoxy always maintained that match bullets were not ethical choices for hunting.
The manufacturers never condoned their target bullets for hunting but here comes Berger that manages to position itself as a hunting bullet when previous bullets of similar design from Sierra and others were always considered fragile and succeptible to separation because of their boat tail and thin jacket conventional designs, I like Bergers and other similar designs but not for ethical hunting with their explosive performance upon impact, I much prefer controlled expansion bullets like the Partition, Accubond, Scirroco and others. I have been witness to the massive meat loss with Bergers, no thanks, those kills are not ethical when the whole deer shoulder is blown off.
my .02
BB

I do see your perspective here, if I'm hearing you right you're saying that even if the kill is humanely fast it doesn't sit right with you to see meat go to waste if preventable?

I've lost a few shoulders to hunting bullets over the years, and I'm sad to say I've lost a deer (just one thankfully) to a hunting bullet.

I'm at the place now where I don't consider it a problem to lose a shoulder (less meat there than most people imagine, if the back straps, tenderloins, and hindquarters aren't damaged you've got the vast majority of the meat). My 270 with hornady interlocks (130, 140 boat tail, 150) absolutely obliterates deer shoulders, but the low tech still penetrates through and it's usually quick killing (though we've all seen those explanation defying, testosterone and adrenaline fueled creatures that get hit about as hard as you can be barring a spine shot and go forever). To me a blown shoulder is no sweat, but a deer that is not recovered literally makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it. I've found on deer size game the kind of bullets that damage meat are also the ones that drop them fast.

Fragmentation is not failure if it kills faster than controlled expansion. What is failure to me is inconsistent results, not knowing if it'll blow up, pencil trough, or veer off away from the vitals.

 

[Calvin45]

The one thing about controlled expansion is you get a deeper wound channel. But it can not make a wound channel as big or devastating as a bullet that opens fast and still passes through. Bergers have done both. I do not shoot in the shoulder I shoot to keep it behind the shoulder.

Some like to say a bullet that passes through is wasted energy. I prefer a pass through with lots of damage from the entrance to exit. That's what kills the best.

I'm neither here nor there about exit wounds but I will say if you make a marginal hit (towards the back of the lungs, or such) they provide much needed tracking assistance, especially as where i live whitetail season almost always has snow on the ground. But even there, nothing is certain. I've seen creatures with entry and exit wounds that, amazingly, left hardly a drop of blood to track - still can't figure out how that's possible but I've seen it. I've also seen creatures with a big entry wound and no exit leave a trail you could follow in the dark just about.

 

[skipglo]

I see your point but of course the broader the wound channel (mechanical wounding, not temporary cavities or hydraulic shock) the faster the kill and the more forgiveness for marginal hits


Good call, if the hybrid is working don't fix what ain't broke! Then again, one never knows what's possible if they don't try... (hehe).

I'd have no doubts whatsoever about the tmk. Tipped match bullets are another ball game altogether, violent fragmentation is almost guaranteed.

All this trying is keeping me broke and the bullet companies rich! Lol Oh well...what would I do with all that extra time and money?

 

[LVJ76]

I do see your perspective here, if I'm hearing you right you're saying that even if the kill is humanely fast it doesn't sit right with you to see meat go to waste if preventable?

I've lost a few shoulders to hunting bullets over the years, and I'm sad to say I've lost a deer (just one thankfully) to a hunting bullet.

I'm at the place now where I don't consider it a problem to lose a shoulder (less meat there than most people imagine, if the back straps, tenderloins, and hindquarters aren't damaged you've got the vast majority of the meat). My 270 with hornady interlocks (130, 140 boat tail, 150) absolutely obliterates deer shoulders, but the low tech still penetrates through and it's usually quick killing (though we've all seen those explanation defying, testosterone and adrenaline fueled creatures that get hit about as hard as you can be barring a spine shot and go forever). To me a blown shoulder is no sweat, but a deer that is not recovered literally makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it. I've found on deer size game the kind of bullets that damage meat are also the ones that drop them fast.

Fragmentation is not failure if it kills faster than controlled expansion. What is failure to me is inconsistent results, not knowing if it'll blow up, pencil trough, or veer off away from the vitals.

Calvin, you mentioned you've used the Hornady Interlocks with good results amd I don't mean to derail this thread but I have a question for you. I hunt Coues deer mostly and yes the shoulder doesn't have a lot of meat but on a small critters like these deer that shoulder meat still matters.

So question is? Do you know how they perform on behind the shoulder shots? I have about 700 or 800 of these bullets in different weights I want to try on game. I get Sub Half MOA grouping with the 154gr and the 162gr on my 7mm Rem Mag, and I'm going to test load the 139gr on my 7mm-08 for when I run out of the SST's I have.

Thank you in advance for your input.

 

[Mustang72]

I think this is a good topic with so many people using the match bullets for hunting now. I like hearing about others experience with them. After I lost that 8pt I have never had any desire or need to take that kind of chance again.
I usually do a pretty good job of checking bullet performance and meat damage on everything that I clean. I have seen a lot of whitetail and pigs shot with everything from 223 and up.
I shoot most of my cull deer for meat with a 223- 50 grain v-max. Head and throat patch shots only. When I horn hunt I usually pick up a 30/06 or 7mag. I have found I lose a little less meat from a 165 out of the 06 when poked through the ribs than a v-max max in the throat patch. When it's a big enough buck i try to take out one or both front shoulders and don't worry about the meat loss. I want them drt!
One of the most destructive bullets I have seen is the sst. It seems to give some fragmentation while still penetrating. Amount of bloodshot meat is excessive imho,but everything is normally drt.I
I am going to give the 243 another try this year(not a big fan).
I might give an sst a try for something to shoot primarily head shots with but still have the ability to take a behind the shoulder shot at long distance of in high winds if needed.
I am not going to knock anybody's choice of bullet as long as they have consistent and effective results from it. Personally I could get along just fine if the only two bullets i ever shot again were a v-max and a partition. I like consistent,predictable results. My downfall is I love to experiment and partitions are to expensive to practice a lot with.

 

[LVJ76]

I think this is a good topic with so many people using the match bullets for hunting now. I like hearing about others experience with them. After I lost that 8pt I have never had any desire or need to take that kind of chance again.
I usually do a pretty good job of checking bullet performance and meat damage on everything that I clean. I have seen a lot of whitetail and pigs shot with everything from 223 and up.
I shoot most of my cull deer for meat with a 223- 50 grain v-max. Head and throat patch shots only. When I horn hunt I usually pick up a 30/06 or 7mag. I have found I lose a little less meat from a 165 out of the 06 when poked through the ribs than a v-max max in the throat patch. When it's a big enough buck i try to take out one or both front shoulders and don't worry about the meat loss. I want them drt!
One of the most destructive bullets I have seen is the sst. It seems to give some fragmentation while still penetrating. Amount of bloodshot meat is excessive imho,but everything is normally drt.I
I am going to give the 243 another try this year(not a big fan).
I might give an sst a try for something to shoot primarily head shots with but still have the ability to take a behind the shoulder shot at long distance of in high winds if needed.
I am not going to knock anybody's choice of bullet as long as they have consistent and effective results from it. Personally I could get along just fine if the only two bullets i ever shot again were a v-max and a partition. I like consistent,predictable results. My downfall is I love to experiment and partitions are to expensive to practice a lot with.

I've had great results with the 139gr SST out of my 7mm-08 with behind the shoulder shots, not a lot of meat damage with vitals turned to jello, most are DRT's. Mayne because of the speed of the bullet with this cartridge.

 

[Calvin45]

Calvin, you mentioned you've used the Hornady Interlocks with good results amd I don't mean to derail this thread but I have a question for you. I hunt Coues deer mostly and yes the shoulder doesn't have a lot of meat but on a small critters like these deer that shoulder meat still matters.

So question is? Do you know how they perform on behind the shoulder shots? I have about 700 or 800 of these bullets in different weights I want to try on game. I get Sub Half MOA grouping with the 154gr and the 162gr on my 7mm Rem Mag, and I'm going to test load the 139gr on my 7mm-08 for when I run out of the SST's I have.

Thank you in advance for your input.

I've not taken a whole ton of deer with them behind the shoulder, but wouldn't hesitate. Low tech softpoints are maddeningly effective for most hunting, boringly reliable. Not good for shooting stem to stern and not very emphatic at lower impact velocities compared to true frangible bullets. But for 90 percent of real world hunting nothing more is truly needed, if you're waiting to take unrushed broadside shots (shoulder or not) at ordinary hunting ranges (I'm intrigued by long range hunting but have never needed to shoot further than 300 yards nor do I seek an excuse to do so when hunting). They do the two things you need to get done, penetrate enough, cause massive trauma along their way. Also, they're easy to load for, easily accurate. Sometimes low tech is low stress.

 

[Kimber7man]

Good read here: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...77783/1/deceased-via-scenar-bullet-pix-please

 

[T3ninja]

All this trying is keeping me broke and the bullet companies rich! Lol Oh well...what would I do with all that extra time and money?

I'd start by buying more guns and ammo lol

 

[bigngreen]

I find it quite disturbing that a match bullet has managed to take a foothold and succeeded in establishing itself as a hunting bullet when conventional orthodoxy always maintained that match bullets were not ethical choices for hunting.
The manufacturers never condoned their target bullets for hunting but here comes Berger that manages to position itself as a hunting bullet when previous bullets of similar design from Sierra and others were always considered fragile and succeptible to separation because of their boat tail and thin jacket conventional designs, I like Bergers and other similar designs but not for ethical hunting with their explosive performance upon impact, I much prefer controlled expansion bullets like the Partition, Accubond, Scirroco and others. I have been witness to the massive meat loss with Bergers, no thanks, those kills are not ethical when the whole deer shoulder is blown off.
my .02
BB

I lost more elk meat by a LOT of pounds shooting Accubonds than I have ever lost with a Berger, I've blood shot elk from the front shoulder to the tail with an accubond while being able to eat withing an inch of the entrance hole of a Berger. Meat loss is exactly why I shoot Berger's or similar bullets, one bullet hole through every animal with minimal blood shot and with maximum lethal damage to internal organs.
It's always obvious when someone has not actually put a Berger bullet on game because they just are not explosive on the entrances, I typically see a little hole and maybe the start of some blood shot right at the ribs and a little around the edges on an exit.
No one would hunt with a bullet that didn't do a better job than the one they were using, so many guys use the Berger's because they flat out work, Berger never marketed as a hunting bullet till guys started telling them they had one of the best hunting bullet out there. The Accubond, Partition, Scirrocco all looks way more meat on the entrance because they expand and drop energy before even reaching the vitals messing up meat, no thanks, I'll keep shoot in Berger's and packaging more pounds of meat!!

 

[Calvin45]

I lost more elk meat by a LOT of pounds shooting Accubonds than I have ever lost with a Berger, I've blood shot elk from the front shoulder to the tail with an accubond while being able to eat withing an inch of the entrance hole of a Berger. Meat loss is exactly why I shoot Berger's or similar bullets, one bullet hole through every animal with minimal blood shot and with maximum lethal damage to internal organs.
It's always obvious when someone has not actually put a Berger bullet on game because they just are not explosive on the entrances, I typically see a little hole and maybe the start of some blood shot right at the ribs and a little around the edges on an exit.
No one would hunt with a bullet that didn't do a better job than the one they were using, so many guys use the Berger's because they flat out work, Berger never marketed as a hunting bullet till guys started telling them they had one of the best hunting bullet out there. The Accubond, Partition, Scirrocco all looks way more meat on the entrance because they expand and drop energy before even reaching the vitals messing up meat, no thanks, I'll keep shoot in Berger's and packaging more pounds of meat!!

Interesting for sure, thanks for the feedback. I've heard this before, that ideally the bergers in particular delay fragmentation. I've also heard other not so glowing accounts of this happening earlier than desired or not happening at all (the particular report being that the 180 vld 7mm had its jacket thickened to survive the overly aggressive twist rates used by some in conjunction with very high muzzle velocity, with undesirable terminal changes). I don't know if its fully warranted to assert that the only people who don't affirm their use are those who haven't used them, seems overgeneralized and kind of hard to prove. But I'm glad to hear the input. Any experience with "the other hpbt" bullets mentioned in my original question? Also, in your opinion and experience, would you opt away from tipped bullets in general based on your experience of them being more destructive of meat? Happy hunting!

 

[bigngreen]

This is a typical entrance wound with a Berger or Matrix open tip match bullet. This bull caught a 160 matrix running at 300 ish, he piled up inside 30 yards, the sage brush was covered in blood he was spewing out from destroyed lungs, no exit required. Meat loss was ounces.