TARGET BULLETS ARE NOT HUNTING BULLETS!

[dlgiese]

My experience tells me that Roy Weatherby was right from the beginning. "Velocity kills", with a properly expanded bullet, of course. The higher the velocity, the faster the incapacitation, all other variables being equal.

I think the slowest kills that I've experienced have been from my muzzleloader. The bullets are certainly wide enough and heavy enough but they lack speed. High velocity impacts seem to disrupt the CNS even if the bullet doesn't impact in a CNS area.

Big & slow certainly gets the job done but doesn't seem to incapacitate as quickly.

Just my observations.

That's interesting. Every deer I have shot straight through the vitals with a .50 Powerbelt has dropped at the shot. The first one fell before the smoke cleared and I couldn't figure out where he went. Muzzle loaders aside, I do agree that speed kills (with a proper bullet).

 

[memtb]

Deleted!

 

[dlgiese]

I've taken 8 deer with 123 Eld-M's from an 6.5 Grendel (MV 2450), all 1 shot kills. All but 1 (hit the spine high shoulder, turned left and was found just in the front of the rear quarter in the flank) exited with a nice exit wound. The 1 recovered bullet was 78 grains with no jacket/core separation. I wouldn't use the same bullet out of a Creedmoor, or faster round, but it works great at that velocity.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

That's interesting. Every deer I have shot straight through the vitals with a .50 Powerbelt has dropped at the shot. The first one fell before the smoke cleared and I couldn't figure out where he went. Muzzle loaders aside, I do agree that speed kills (with a proper bullet).

Are power belts fast expanding soft bullets?
We haven't used smoke poles in so long I've forgotten most everything about them.
EXCEPT the kick of a short barrel .54 Sile with 100grs pyrodex and a 420gr maxi-ball.

 

[Bruce Hanson]

I remember reading Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith going at the velocity vs large caliber debate. Jack shot everything in North America with a 270 Winchester and his favorite load was a 130g over 60g od H4831. Keith didn't think you shoukd shoot a deer with anything under 338 caliber. Both woukd work I think.
So I would like an opinion on why that coyote I shot at 300 yards with a 140 ELD-M out of my Creedmoor run another 300 yards and was alive ten minutes later. I'm suspecting the coyote wasnt large enough to upset the bullet. Right? Wrong?

 

[memtb]

I remember reading Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith going at the velocity vs large caliber debate. Jack shot everything in North America with a 270 Winchester and his favorite load was a 130g over 60g od H4831. Keith didn't think you shoukd shoot a deer with anything under 338 caliber. Both woukd work I think.
So I would like an opinion on why that coyote I shot at 300 yards with a 140 ELD-M out of my Creedmoor run another 300 yards and was alive ten minutes later. I'm suspecting the coyote wasnt large enough to upset the bullet. Right? Wrong?

The "needmore" is devastating on elk….maybe not so much on coyotes! memtb

 

[Phil Rizzo]

I remember reading Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith going at the velocity vs large caliber debate. Jack shot everything in North America with a 270 Winchester and his favorite load was a 130g over 60g od H4831. Keith didn't think you shoukd shoot a deer with anything under 338 caliber. Both woukd work I think.
So I would like an opinion on why that coyote I shot at 300 yards with a 140 ELD-M out of my Creedmoor run another 300 yards and was alive ten minutes later. I'm suspecting the coyote wasnt large enough to upset the bullet. Right?

1-high BC match bullet
2-Modern cartridge design that reeks of efficiency, with a catchy name and no belt

Makes no sense at all that he didn't do the insta-flop…

 

[Mike6158]

"I've heard" of people being told to go get a deer, by their dad, so they would get the old .22LR out of the gun case (remember those), put it in the gun rack (remember those) in the pickup, and go "find" a deer in the dark. I've heard that they used one shot otherwise they would get chewed out for wasting ammo. That might have happened in the 60's and 70's in south Texas. To my knowledge, second hand of course, no youthful individuals were caught, I mean harmed, in said endeavor. And I know for a fact have heard that said individuals would not do that today.

Small deer don't require large firearms

 

[memtb]

I remember reading Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith going at the velocity vs large caliber debate. Jack shot everything in North America with a 270 Winchester and his favorite load was a 130g over 60g od H4831. Keith didn't think you shoukd shoot a deer with anything under 338 caliber. Both woukd work I think.
So I would like an opinion on why that coyote I shot at 300 yards with a 140 ELD-M out of my Creedmoor run another 300 yards and was alive ten minutes later. I'm suspecting the coyote wasnt large enough to upset the bullet. Right? Wrong?

Bruce, there is one small detail that many don't remember or know about Elmer……he liked large calibers at high velocity!

It was told that once at a hunting camp Elmer was asked about what he considered the perfect cartridge, his answer went something like this…. something that would trow a camp stove around 3,000 fps!

I approve his message! memtb

 

[Bruce Hanson]

Bruce, there is one small detail that many don't remember or know about Elmer……he liked large calibers at high velocity!

It was told that once at a hunting camp Elmer was asked about what he considered the perfect cartridge, his answer went something like this…. something that would trow a camp stove around 3,000 fps!

I approve his message! memtb

I know he really liked the 338 Caliber. He was always pushing the performance of the 44 Special and is probably remembered most in pushing Remington to develope the 44mag.

After years of 44 mag 310g pushed to 1350 and surgery on my wrist I finally bought a couple 10mm. The 200 g at 1400fps kind of smacks the old bones too. Elmer might forgive me, especially since I push a 405 g to 2200fps in a 28 inch barrel falling block 45/70. My normal load is a little more sane, a 300 g Saeco at 2000fps.

 

[memtb]

I know he really liked the 338 Caliber. He was always pushing the performance of the 44 Special and is probably remembered most in pushing Remington to develope the 44mag.

After years of 44 mag 310g pushed to 1350 and surgery on my wrist I finally bought a couple 10mm. The 200 g at 1400fps kind of smacks the old bones too. Elmer might forgive me, especially since I push a 405 g to 2200fps in a 28 inch barrel falling block 45/70. My normal load is a little more sane, a 300 g Saeco at 2000fps.

To anyone that's seen some of my posts, it's pretty easy to conclude that I am an "unabashed" Elmer fan.

Loved my 44 mag with heavy cast, worship my 460 S&W with 400 gr. cast pushed pretty hard, and have a 34 year "romantic relationship" with my .375 AI with my most recent load developed with a 270 gr. LRX's @ near 3100 mv.

So….guilty as charged! memtb

 

[L2land]

I remember reading Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith going at the velocity vs large caliber debate. Jack shot everything in North America with a 270 Winchester and his favorite load was a 130g over 60g od H4831. Keith didn't think you shoukd shoot a deer with anything under 338 caliber. Both woukd work I think.
So I would like an opinion on why that coyote I shot at 300 yards with a 140 ELD-M out of my Creedmoor run another 300 yards and was alive ten minutes later. I'm suspecting the coyote wasnt large enough to upset the bullet. Right? Wrong?

Coyotes can do pretty well on three legs….

 

[arch408]

I have never used target bullets for big game. I don't have a problem using them on varmints. I'm sure they have killed big game, but they are designed for extreme accuracy, not terminal performance. Just my opinion. To each his own. It's a personal choice. I once shot a deer with my 6.5 Rem Mag 100 gr. Corelokt factory load. It would not have been my first choice for hunting deer, It performed admirably. I hit him behind the shoulder. The bullet doubled him and exited. I was surprised because I considered that a varmint load. On another hunt, I shot a deer with a 120 Speer with that rifle. Same placement. Bullet grenaded inside his chest, splattering the off side ribs with lead fragments. Part of the bullet exited and this snow had blood splattered all over it. The deer dropped in its tracks. I researched the bullet, and learned that it was designed for lower velocities. I shot a deer last fall with a factory 6.5 Rem Mag 120 gr Corelokt. Once again complete penetration, with no evidence of over expansion. Double lunged and he dropped within seconds. I guess this could be a testimonial for CoreLokt bullets, but they are designed for hunting and they worked. What I am trying to say is, I'm a believer in using bullets in situations that they were designed for.

 

[sveltri]

I've spent the last decade primarily hunting with a recurve, but do have a few rifle kills scattered in. I shot a cow elk at 140ish yards with a 300 WBY 180 Nosler AB. Split the scapula from top to bottom and blew right through her, had to put another in her head because I don't like to see them suffer. Next year I shot a cow, first at 200 with 7 Mag and 160 Nosler AB, shot her again at 300, and once more in head to end it. All those shots were in the "vitals". Took the 257 Wby to Nebraska for deer shot a couple from 250-350 with Berger 115 VLD's, both one shot both dead in a matter of seconds. Shot another cow 2 years ago at 387 6.5PRC 153.5 Berger LRHT, she walked 20ish yards and fell dead. I'll take "Target" bullets that exhibit a short neck length and violent disruption every time now. Temporary wounds do not kill, permanent wounds do kill and quickly. My daughter shot her first elk this year at 250 with a 260 RemAI and a Berger, not sure if it was 130 or 140. Barely got the back of one lung and the liver, 5 steps and she was dead in 12 or so seconds. This year I'm hunting elk with a 243 AI and 108 eld-m's. I know what my max distance is based on my practice and the minimum velocity threshold for that bullet to effectively disrupt is.