Speedy hammers

[Bghunter338]

Gotcha, the rifle is a Remington 700 Long action with a 26" Muller works carbon barrel. It has a 7.5" twist. So far 64.5grs of IMR 7828 at 3450fps with the 121gr HH. The caliber is a 257 Blackbird. The rifle only has 11 shots down the pipe so far so I'm assuming it's still going to speed up a little bit. I did hit 3582 but that was a little to hot. I'm going to load up some for group tests this week and see what she likes the best.

Went out today and tried a group with 64grs of IMR 7828 215m primer, and 3449 fps

 

[.300 Dakota]

Went out today and tried a group with 64grs of IMR 7828 215m primer, and 3449 fps
View attachment 312392

Bet that one on the bottom was cold bore. Those things are quite pesky!!

Great info and better shooting than I'd do for sure!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I wouldn't make a habit of it, not good for barrel longevity.

I am not sure that I buy into the theory that higher vel makes a barrel wear out faster. Barrel wear comes from heat and pressure together. So if you are loading a 30-06 with a 250g bullet at 2300 fps vs a 130g bullet at 3300 fps at the same pressure and relatively close to the same amount of powder. Which bullet will wear out the barrel faster? I don't know. I think you could run this example sxs time after time and not come to a conclusive answer.

In general faster cartridges burn barrels faster because they are using more powder to get the extra vel. More powder creates more heat.

 

[Calvin45]

I am not sure that I buy into the theory that higher vel makes a barrel wear out faster. Barrel wear comes from heat and pressure together. So if you are loading a 30-06 with a 250g bullet at 2300 fps vs a 130g bullet at 3300 fps at the same pressure and relatively close to the same amount of powder. Which bullet will wear out the barrel faster? I don't know. I think you could run this example sxs time after time and not come to a conclusive answer.

In general faster cartridges burn barrels faster because they are using more powder to get the extra vel. More powder creates more heat.

Right! If velocity itself was the problem one would expect the worst barrel damage to be towards the muzzle not the throat…that's where the bullets going the fastest. But of course that's not what we find.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

easy peasy..........pressure equals speed and speed equals pressure no free lunches buddy boy

Yes. Less engraving pressure means more potential speed with the same pressure.

 

[Calvin45]

@RockyMtnMT have you by chance done any testing with hbn (hexagonal boron nitride) treating hammer bullets? I understand they likely wouldn't benefit from it as much as conventional bullets as the design already lowers engraving pressure and makes them less finicky about seating depth. But hbn does increase barrel life it seems, mitigates the point of impact difference from cold bore and subsequent shots, and with conventional bullets and even monos like Barnes I have observed greater velocity possibility before hitting pressure signs.

 

[Joejack]

I was able to put 1 group down range yesterday with the 124 HHs in .300 Win Mag with the 60gr Benchrest load. Velocities had a wide spread (typical of low-density loads) and were quite a bit lower on avg than I anticipated (under 3200) BUT, this was a load I concocted because I wanted a reduced load. I used Rem 9 1/2M primers, and did see slight pressure indicators indicative of a pressure spike (faint ejector marks). The cup/core 130gr Hornady with 65 grains of IMR 4064 also showed the same slight pressure and velocity was the same at a little below 3200 ft/s. I am definitely scrapping the Benchrest load. Group was 2", and this is a brand new Sauer 101, which has the lock ring and pressed in barrel. Not sure if it will handle any of the lightweight bullets. I need under MOA to even consider its use. A regular large rifle primer would have probably given a smaller spread and more consistent results with these faster burning powders, but it met my magnum-primer-criteria of a 60-grain or more volume. I will continue with the other loads as I continue to break in the barrel. Overall, I can get a lightweight 308 Winchester with same 24" barrel and get better velocity with these same bullets using nearly 1/3 less powder and 1/3 less recoil. The Sauer 101 is stocked with the hollow plastic stock, which I filled with foam, and is a very lightweight and handy rifle. However, even with the 60 - 65 grain charge weight and light bullets, the rifle really "comes to see you" upon pulling the trigger (which is a crisp 2 lbs).

Trying the Hammers in the 22 Creedmoor, I was amazed to learn that my average was well below 3000 ft/s with the 73gr (measured 72gr), although the group was excellent at 5/8". I used 40.7 grains of MRP. By contrast, I registered just north of 3050 avg with Barnes 78gr using 39.0 grains of H4955. Group was over 2", just first shot was a cold-bore/clean-bore shot that landed 2" above the center of the last 2 rounds, which were 7/8" apart. Trying to track cold bore shots, because guess what I'll have in the field??! This has bitten me before at longer ranges. I had my first group in the. 22 Creed go into 1/2" with Norma MRP using 40.0 grains with the Barnes 78gr TSX a couple weeks ago. I did not check velocity on that one, so I can't compare apples to apples with the Hammers yet. I have several more good loads made for the Creedmoor, but I am of the opinion that I'm not pushing it to its fullest potential. There is zero pressure and the primers look just like they came out of the sleeve except with an indention. I have room in the case for a little more, but the Hammers have the loads very slightly compressed. It may be worth me breaking out my last remaining supply of AA3100 and Win Supreme 780. I think a slower ball powder would be a great choice here. Superformance might be the bomb, but I rarely get great groups from Superformance in anything. 4000MR is next up on deck...

FWIW, this is a BRAND NEW chronograph, and since both rifles are about 150ft/s slower than I thought they should be with their respective loads, I am going to set up the new chrono with the old chrono in series to verify the new guy knows what he's talking about. My old one was spot on for lots of years, but finally got to where it would start spitting out random numbers and quit altogether after about 40 minutes of use out in the sun. It's still good for several rounds, so I can use it to check the new one. Will report more findings as they are uncovered.

Do you have any rl23 it will push the 73 gr hammer 3500fps in one of my 22 creedmoor and 3600fps in my other one both 1&7twist 26" barrels

 

[RockyMtnMT]

@RockyMtnMT have you by chance done any testing with hbn (hexagonal boron nitride) treating hammer bullets? I understand they likely wouldn't benefit from it as much as conventional bullets as the design already lowers engraving pressure and makes them less finicky about seating depth. But hbn does increase barrel life it seems, mitigates the point of impact difference from cold bore and subsequent shots, and with conventional bullets and even monos like Barnes I have observed greater velocity possibility before hitting pressure signs.

We did play with it quite a bit in the beginning. We were going to offer it as an option when purchasing bullets. We did not see enough benefit to make it a process in mass. That said there are quite a few customers that are hbn guys and always do it. We did see an increase in vel and lower es by doing it.

Years ago we used to use Gun Juice on our barrels. We recently started using it again. I think this is well worth looking into.

 

[Calvin45]

We did play with it quite a bit in the beginning. We were going to offer it as an option when purchasing bullets. We did not see enough benefit to make it a process in mass. That said there are quite a few customers that are hbn guys and always do it. We did see an increase in vel and lower es by doing it.

Years ago we used to use Gun Juice on our barrels. We recently started using it again. I think this is well worth looking into.

That's great to know, thanks.

I keep meaning to try the hammers out but haven't got around to it yet i confess. If George's Shooting Shack (the Canadian vendor) ends up stocking the 124 .30 cal hammer hunter that's what I'm most itching to try. I've made a thread a while back about my results this summer with the Barnes 120 tac-tx (a .300 blackout bullet by design) treated with hbn. I got it up to 4040-4060 fps muzzle velocity in my savage 111 long range hunter 300 win mag with Peterson brass, a TON of hodgdon superformance powder, and fed 215m. That's just shy of 4400 foot pounds energy from a 300 Winnie with a light bullet (I will not be responsible for others seeing this and assuming it's safe in all firearms, etc). I'm curious if that 124 hammer might go even slightly faster, but more importantly might tolerate the 1:10 twist better. Your apostle @ButterBean has indicated the hammers are more tolerant of psychotic rpms than most bullets including other monos. This current load I have is just beyond awesome to me, 4000fps having been something of a holy grail, and it's accurate enough for hunting but you can tell it's not as accurate as heavier bullets (best load i have accuracy wise is with a 225 eld m). Just thought I'd mention that, if they get those particular bullets in stock I'll try this out and be sure to post the results.

In the meantime from what they do have in stock im considering strongly the 70 hammer hunter to test out in my beloved old savage 99 .243. If it delivers as advertised should be a low recoil laser beam and probably what my four young children will end up hunting with when they're getting started and still scrawny haha (here's praying they like hunting…my feeling will be just fine if they don't but with the way the price of groceries is going nuts it'll be more of a practicality thing..,I ain't buying meat for a family of six carnivores including 3 teenage males about 10 years from now!!!).

Think the 70 hh would work well with the savage 99s 10 twist or do you recommend a different bullet?

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I think the 70g would be perfect.

You can order directly form our website. George has an order now that is waiting to clear customs. Always a problem on the bigger orders. Stupid!

 

[Calvin45]

I think the 70g would be perfect.

You can order directly form our website. George has an order now that is waiting to clear customs. Always a problem on the bigger orders. Stupid!

Thanks for the feedback! Yeah I know about the direct order ability, just if I can avoid the international shipping costs I will. I'm not in any hurry yet, I'll probably try those 70s first.

 

[Bghunter338]

Went out today and tried a group with 64grs of IMR 7828 215m primer, and 3449 fps
View attachment 312392

Tried it again but this time seated them in a little deeper.

 

[cabelasken]

Right! If velocity itself was the problem one would expect the worst barrel damage to be towards the muzzle not the throat…that's where the bullets going the fastest. But of course that's not what we find.

I believe the unburned powder kernals contribute to the erosion at the throat whereas the powder is burned and is mostly in a gaseous state at the muzzle so therefore less erosion at the muzzle. That is why I think those cases with a longer neck design help to straighten out the flow before entering the barrel and should lessen the damage slightly.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Tried it again but this time seated them in a little deeper.

View attachment 322475

I think that will do!