If die is contacting shell holder, material may need to be removed from bottom of die. I had to do this to a rcbs fls die when sizing 5.56 mm cases to fit a bolt action .223 chamber.
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Some brass not bumping back
- Thread starter bultinkle
- Start date
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calinb
Well-Known Member
I've had to do this for WSSM case shoulders for more than one gun. I used my milling machine. I think Redding actually sells reduced dimension shell holder sets for this purpose.
pavementends
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2017
- Messages
- 124
Wow,
I am not sure I understand some of the suggestions. Do you measure the cases before and after sizing? If so and on some of the cases the shoulder is bumped back and on others it is not, what is changing in the press,die, shell holder set up? A sharpie is your friend. Determine where the case is tight in your chamber.
The modern annealing devices are wonderful for high volume shooters, however to check if it would help your issue a candle and holding the case in your hand would suffice. At the very least you would know where the issue was. As always the best bet is to change one thing at a time.
Kind regards
I am not sure I understand some of the suggestions. Do you measure the cases before and after sizing? If so and on some of the cases the shoulder is bumped back and on others it is not, what is changing in the press,die, shell holder set up? A sharpie is your friend. Determine where the case is tight in your chamber.
The modern annealing devices are wonderful for high volume shooters, however to check if it would help your issue a candle and holding the case in your hand would suffice. At the very least you would know where the issue was. As always the best bet is to change one thing at a time.
Kind regards
You should measure to datum line of the fired case before you size it then after. If it's the same it should still close in chamber. If it's longer and harder to close in chamber try to bump it back. If no change then try a 0.002" feeler gauge under the case and size without changing the die setting, and measure or try to chamber. Try this before grinding on a sizing die or shell holder. Increase feeler gauge thickness until action closes easily with those cases. Hard to say why only 6 cases didn't size down correctly. I use a brass shim when sizing my 257wby cases so they chamber easily.
Are you setting up the cam over without brass in the die? The point of a good cam over is that the forces and dimensions become tolerant of the case to case variations in resizing force. Spring back is still an issue, but the other variables are nearly eliminated. You will get cam over without the die touching the shellholder when there is brass present.I get the best results with a relatively stiff cam over without brass present. Remember, you want the forces generated to be significantly greated than the variation in forces caused by resizing the brass.
The Redding competition shell holders allow you to setup a proper cam over, without brass present, to eliminate several of the the variations. Giving up some or all of the cam over to bump shoulders in mid air can work if everything is perfect, but it doesn't take much for things to go wrong. Too much or too little lube causes shoulder setback to vary when trying to do it by backing off the die. I necksized only for many years because bumping shoulders just a couple 0.001 was too time consuming. Redding competition shell holders greatly simply the process if you set it up with the significant cam over without brass present.
I would measure the diameter at the .200 to see if these cases have grown more than the others at the base. Squishing this area back down can take more force than a die can withstand and it often feels like the die is contacting the shell holder. If the die is getting hung up on this area it is possible the press is flexing enough to absorb that added turndown you added. If this area is over expanded your best option might be to toss the brass. If this area is a little tight you should be able see it with a marker check.
I can't think of any other issue that fits your description beyond cases that have expanded too much near the head and are stopping the die from traveling down the case and truly contacting the shell holder.
The Redding competition shell holders allow you to setup a proper cam over, without brass present, to eliminate several of the the variations. Giving up some or all of the cam over to bump shoulders in mid air can work if everything is perfect, but it doesn't take much for things to go wrong. Too much or too little lube causes shoulder setback to vary when trying to do it by backing off the die. I necksized only for many years because bumping shoulders just a couple 0.001 was too time consuming. Redding competition shell holders greatly simply the process if you set it up with the significant cam over without brass present.
I would measure the diameter at the .200 to see if these cases have grown more than the others at the base. Squishing this area back down can take more force than a die can withstand and it often feels like the die is contacting the shell holder. If the die is getting hung up on this area it is possible the press is flexing enough to absorb that added turndown you added. If this area is over expanded your best option might be to toss the brass. If this area is a little tight you should be able see it with a marker check.
I can't think of any other issue that fits your description beyond cases that have expanded too much near the head and are stopping the die from traveling down the case and truly contacting the shell holder.
Also, if you believe in the merits of primer seating depth consistentency or primer seating depth tuning then you probably want to avoid 0.002 to 0.004 of variation in shoulder setback in addition to avoiding excessive full setback.
Redding competition shell holders will often get you there without the annealing. I am not advocating against annealing. Backing off the die from a standard shell holder just opens the door to variations in shoulder setback. I found the competition shell holders to be money well spent in terms of getting a consistent shoulder setback. Annealing just makes things a little better.
Redding competition shell holders will often get you there without the annealing. I am not advocating against annealing. Backing off the die from a standard shell holder just opens the door to variations in shoulder setback. I found the competition shell holders to be money well spent in terms of getting a consistent shoulder setback. Annealing just makes things a little better.
Jim’s Hunt
Well-Known Member
Take you die to a machinist and have .010-.015 faced off of die mouth or purchase the Redding competition set of shell holders along with annealing. I hate to cam over my press as in my opinion it puts to much stress on the arms of the press.
Oldtime Shooter13
Well-Known Member
Man, there are so many variables here, but I agree with Pdvdh response as a starting point. Running a soft metal (brass) into a harder metal (steel) will always result in the softer metal getting formed (Resized). If your the base of your die is coming in full contact with the top of your shell holder and you have resistance or cam-over. That is as far as your brass is going to go into that die. Adjustments to shell holder or die will be necessary. Shell holders come in different thicknesses by manufacture. Taking a couple thousands off of you die is an option if you have a lathe or know a machinist.
Are you having issues with these cases loading into your chamber?
I ran into this issue in some 243 brass in the past a very long time ago. I was using an RCBS FL die and was not consistently bumping shoulder back on all cases. I started using a Redding Body Die and changed to Forrester NS Bench Rest dies and solved my issue. Body die only deals with case resizing and bumping back the shoulder. You can adjust the die to tailor headspace. I does not touch the neck of the case. Then size the neck with NS die. I typically only use body die every 4 or 5 reloading's. By this time it is time to anneal and you will need to full length size the case anyway or toss them. FL dies may not always bump back and can sometimes make matters worse?
The 243 by design with a 20 degree shoulder is another issue. I have found that since I have moved to cartridges using 30 and 40 degree shoulder that I don't have the case sizing and trimming issues.This may be getting too far down the Rabbit Hole?
How and where are you getting your measurements from? If you are using digital caliper, how accurate are your calipers? Are you using a comparator to measure base to datum?
I don't know if any of this helps to OP, but taking the advice of many on this forum and doing your own research is a good place to start. The first thing I would be to try a few different shell holders checking thickness. I know Lyman #2 will allow cases to go an additional .002 into the die. If that does not work, try is adding a body die into your reloading process. A few other pieces of advice I would have is adding a Lee de-capping die, I don't use de-caping pins in my sizing dies. I recap all of my cases after firing and clean before going into any of my sizing and loading processes. I have used Lee Collet Dies and like them for some cartridges. I like Lee factory crimp dies for my hunting reloads or where cartridge will see possible rough use. Here we go again, Down the Rabbit Hole! I could go on and on reloading for 50+ years of my life.
Welcome to Reloading, it is a lifetime of neck bumps and learning.
Are you having issues with these cases loading into your chamber?
I ran into this issue in some 243 brass in the past a very long time ago. I was using an RCBS FL die and was not consistently bumping shoulder back on all cases. I started using a Redding Body Die and changed to Forrester NS Bench Rest dies and solved my issue. Body die only deals with case resizing and bumping back the shoulder. You can adjust the die to tailor headspace. I does not touch the neck of the case. Then size the neck with NS die. I typically only use body die every 4 or 5 reloading's. By this time it is time to anneal and you will need to full length size the case anyway or toss them. FL dies may not always bump back and can sometimes make matters worse?
The 243 by design with a 20 degree shoulder is another issue. I have found that since I have moved to cartridges using 30 and 40 degree shoulder that I don't have the case sizing and trimming issues.This may be getting too far down the Rabbit Hole?
How and where are you getting your measurements from? If you are using digital caliper, how accurate are your calipers? Are you using a comparator to measure base to datum?
I don't know if any of this helps to OP, but taking the advice of many on this forum and doing your own research is a good place to start. The first thing I would be to try a few different shell holders checking thickness. I know Lyman #2 will allow cases to go an additional .002 into the die. If that does not work, try is adding a body die into your reloading process. A few other pieces of advice I would have is adding a Lee de-capping die, I don't use de-caping pins in my sizing dies. I recap all of my cases after firing and clean before going into any of my sizing and loading processes. I have used Lee Collet Dies and like them for some cartridges. I like Lee factory crimp dies for my hunting reloads or where cartridge will see possible rough use. Here we go again, Down the Rabbit Hole! I could go on and on reloading for 50+ years of my life.
Welcome to Reloading, it is a lifetime of neck bumps and learning.
I'm a bit confused by your measurements. A 243 Winchester headspace - shoulder @ .400. Using a D400 bushing in Hornady headspace comparator gauge, I get 1.6330 on a 10 case average for 2 time fired cases I have. This measurement is .007 less than maximum SAAMI specs for the cartridge 1.640 from bolt face. My rifle may have a tighter chamber and of course these gauges are not pin point accurate. The best use is taking measurements before and after case is fired. I am interested in knowing what measuring tools you are using.
I'm using a d375 because it's closer to the middle of the shoulder, a d400 is closer to the body so the numbers seem about right for the difference
Honestly, much more investigation into this is gonna get to the point where it's not worth my time as I have a match to load for soon. I'll probably set these problem children to the side, load the rest and revisit them after he shoots up this loading to see if it repeats next time.
I appreciate all the great ideas from everyone here!
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Oldtime Shooter13
Well-Known Member
Oldtime Shooter13
Well-Known Member
If I use C375 on my cases I measure 1.660". Have you measured using D400. Headspace is measured closer to the body and not in the middle of the shoulder. Smoke or mark with a black marker a piece of brass that chamber easily and one you are having issue with. It should remove marks where it is binding. If it is headspace issue it will show immediately.
Now, cases that I have will vary from case to case, by as much as a couple thousands, but they all chamber with ease. I looked at some Remington nickel cases and Winchester brass cases and they differ running through the same die. What manufacture dies are you using?
Now, cases that I have will vary from case to case, by as much as a couple thousands, but they all chamber with ease. I looked at some Remington nickel cases and Winchester brass cases and they differ running through the same die. What manufacture dies are you using?
Is this a Savage or Remage? If it is, reset your headspace,your headspace is set to tight,it's tighter than your die specs.I've seen this on several prefits jobs.
