Yes, they are SMP, and will work in a 1/14" twist. However, at least in my 24" 222, I have to push them above 2,900fps for full stabilization at distance. The 1/12"tw 223's have no problems at all.
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Smallest caliber for Montana Mule Deer Rifle
- Thread starter nksmfamjp
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LMAO.......Okay. However, I don't use to many tree stands here in the West.
Should I "resurrect" all those dead game animals I should not have killed with 22's, 6mm's and 25's? And what about a couple of friends who have been killing "elk" for decades with 243's??
Thanks for your thoughts, out of curiosity what bullet were you using? A mono or a CNC?
Huge difference between 22 and 25 calibers at 600 yards and less on game animals.
Leaf Litter
Well-Known Member
Any of the 6mm cartridges with fast enough twist to shoot 100+ grain bullets should do the trick. Lots of guys are having success with 22 cal centerfire cartridges, I'm just not sold. I like a little bit extra (range, power, penetration, etc.) when it comes to game animals in hunting situations where a perfect shot may never present itself, but to each their own.
Personally I'd love to use a 6 creed or 243 AI for deer. Flat shooting and carries significant punch out past 600 yards. However I live in Iowa where we have a 35 cal minimum in an attempt to reduce downrange bullet flight due to the fact that you're almost never more than a few hundred yards from a house.
Personally I'd love to use a 6 creed or 243 AI for deer. Flat shooting and carries significant punch out past 600 yards. However I live in Iowa where we have a 35 cal minimum in an attempt to reduce downrange bullet flight due to the fact that you're almost never more than a few hundred yards from a house.
He stated anything under a 6.5.......
As for the 22 calibers on game, often, I have been hard pressed to notice much difference in wounds produced between my 22/250-AI with 80-88's vs my 243's and 6mm's. Many people are reporting similar with 22CM's used at distance, but they are basically the same cartridge as my AI just a 30 degree shoulder.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
One must consider MT hunting and where Mule deer live. They will range from the open prairies up to the highest sheep elevation at times. One can not only consider the actual ability to Kill a mature mule deer, most modern rifle chamberings will have the ABILITY to do that at 600 yards. He main issue is generally having a rifle with the ability to hit the target consistently in the vitals at this range. As such, WIND is often the main consideration. Being a native MT boy and lived and hunted here my entire, wind is the killer. On the prairies you can have clean wind but often times not, a 20 mph wind is just another day on the east side of the rockies.
Wind is the reason i started designed my APS wildcats 20 years ago. Wind is the reason why my Raptor and Stalker rifles are here today.
Many looked at my wildcats and thought, those are massively overpowered for simply hunting deer……. Here in Montana and many western states, killing the game is not the challange, hitting the game in the vitals on the first shot is the challenge because of the wind. That is why my idea of the perfect deer rifle is a 7mm with the ability to drive a 180 gr bullet to +3400 fps or a 195 gr bullet to +3300 fps. Yep, thats my 7mm Allen Magnum and thats out of a conventional weight sporter style hunting rifle.
Now i said thats MY idea of the perfect deer rifle for Montana but that one has the ability to add 1000 yards to your 600 yard range goals. Still, if i am hunting mule deer in Montana, there will very likely be a 7mm AM on my shoulder.
The question however was what is the smallest chambering recommended for mule deer in MT out to 600 yards. The question alone worries me a bit, SMALLEST….. why in the world would we want the absolute minimum? With the smallest, the margins for error are the smallest as well…. If recoil is an issue, there are many fine ways to eliminate that issue…….
But if a customer came to me asking me my recommendation to this exact question. I would likely say at least a 6.5mm round with the ability to drive a minimum of 140 gr bullet weight to at least 3000 fps. That would be my absolute minimum. So something such as the 6.5-06 AI, 6.5 wsm class and up.
Ideal minimum would be a 270 or 7mm with at least 150-160 gr bullet weight and ability to drive those to around 3000 fps or more. 270 wsm, 7mm wsm, 7mm rem mag
Are these required for mule deer, nope, but hitting the target precisely at 600 yards greatly complicates this project.
I can hear it already, all the anti-magnum crowd typing away to argue the need for this class of rifle. Anyone that says its just as easy to hit a one moa sized target at 600 yards with their 6mm creed compared to doing the same with a 7mm wsm in a 10-15 mph variable wind is either not overly experienced or flat out being dishonest. They can talk all they want about numbers on paper, when the bullets actually get in the air, its obvious, the larger rounds make hitting small targets at longer ranges easier.
Then we get into the margin of error issues which unfortunately in the real world are legit concerns. Hit s mule deer on the fringes of the vitals at 600 yards with a 243 or 6mm creed an likely you will have a rather challenging recovery project ahead of you at best or loose a mortally wounded animal at worse.
Same hit with a 7mm wsm or better yet 7mm AM
, will increase the odds of recovering that game animal DRAMATICALLY. yes there will still be thr possibility of poor results, hitting the vitals dead center is always the goal, but in the real world, not always reality….In my opinion, looking for the SMALLEST possible option that could work is not the best choice. And often times will result in a less then ideal outcome which can cause much headaches and frustrations…
Hondo64d
Well-Known Member
You've probably seen or heard the phrase "Bullets matter more than headstamps." That is absolutely true. Most factory 22-250s have a 1:12 or 1:14" twist, which will only stabilize bullets with very low (by today's standards) BCs. Such bullets shed velocity very rapidly and not very far down range, an 88gr ELD-M or similar will actually pass the lighter bullet in velocity even though the lighter bullet might have been launched with a 400fps higher muzzle velocity. This is an absolute game changer in terms of drop, wind drift and terminal performance, absolutely changing cartridges with 22-250 case capacities into something waaay more capable than we previously thought possible.
If your barrel is twisted 1:7, try some 88gr ELDs or similar. The results will absolutely amaze you.
John
Many people who knock the high vel 22 cals for game have never shot medium game at distance with any of the more modern VLD heavies. My standard 22/250 in 1/9tw with 73-75's is a very different round than using the 50-55's for varmints, and my 22/250-AI with 1/8tw using 80-88's at my hunting altitude still has over 2,450fps at 600yds with nearly 1,100 ft/lbs of energy (For those who want 1,000 ft/lb minimum).
Using the Hornady 80gr with a 300yd zero, 2.5" high at 100yds, I can shoot point blank to about 425yds, and I am only 36" low at 600yds.
While I may not recommend a fast 22 cal for everyone, the op asked about "minimum" for deer, so given the experiences of many of us with 22 cals, it has to be in the conversation. Typically, those using fast 22 cals and heavy VLD's on game have honed their skills above the average hunter/shooter. YMMV
Very similar with hunters who have never used heavier VLD types of bullets in the 6mm's at longer distances.
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Ronald W Schaefer
Well-Known Member
Based on personal experience "out west" and the 600 yd spec, I'd say lowest is 6.5 PRC with 156 gr EOL. I have a Browning White Gold Medallion blonde maple stock that I bought off the shelf and it is a tack driver with 142 gr NABLR factory ammo. It shoots so good I didn't work up a load. I just went back and bought 5 boxes of the same lot ammo and put it in the cabinet. Done. My go to for mulies in the Rockies is a 6.8 western in a Fierce custom build that weighs in at 7 lbs. with Leopold VX6 HD 3-18X50 with adjustable turrets. The 6.8 will push a 165 gr NABLR 2950 fps, 170 EOL at 2900 and 175 gr, Sierra Game King at 2850 in a 22", 1/7 twist barrel. All those bullets have a BC higher than .600 and .300 something sectional density--handy for bucking wind/penetration. It has the same energy retained at 500 yds with 165 gr Nosler ABLR as a 300 Win Mag driving 180 gr bullet. It is marketed as a high-performance cartridge without the muzzle blast and lower recoil than "magnum" rifles. I personally put the noise and kick on par with a 30-06 what with that light weight and muzzle brake.
If I were just starting out, I'd look closely at the 7 PRC. I love 284 Cal and own 3-7mm-08 (which I took a nice mule deer in Dove Creek CO last year at 475 yds, 1 shot DRT), 2-7 Rem Mag rifles, but I've really been impressed with the 7 PRC numbers and performance on game. My son runs a big hunting outfit in South Texas and while a lot of hunting is done from blinds at about 100-150 yd average shot, there are lot of stands where you can get a mile long look down the gas pipeline and power line senderos. Often the big boys travel single, and you see them step out at about 700 yds daring you to shoot. He put a good LR rifleman up on one of those last year using a 7 PRC and the guy took down a 170-class white tail, DRT one shot kill a 550 yds. Soooo...for me I like the light weight, high twist rate, high performance mid caliber rigs. I don't take a heavy 30 and up nor do I go below 6.5 for the task you describe. I feel good to 500+ with plenty of jack to take one down at that range but it's easy to carry and I can hit what I'm shooting at.
If I were just starting out, I'd look closely at the 7 PRC. I love 284 Cal and own 3-7mm-08 (which I took a nice mule deer in Dove Creek CO last year at 475 yds, 1 shot DRT), 2-7 Rem Mag rifles, but I've really been impressed with the 7 PRC numbers and performance on game. My son runs a big hunting outfit in South Texas and while a lot of hunting is done from blinds at about 100-150 yd average shot, there are lot of stands where you can get a mile long look down the gas pipeline and power line senderos. Often the big boys travel single, and you see them step out at about 700 yds daring you to shoot. He put a good LR rifleman up on one of those last year using a 7 PRC and the guy took down a 170-class white tail, DRT one shot kill a 550 yds. Soooo...for me I like the light weight, high twist rate, high performance mid caliber rigs. I don't take a heavy 30 and up nor do I go below 6.5 for the task you describe. I feel good to 500+ with plenty of jack to take one down at that range but it's easy to carry and I can hit what I'm shooting at.
Lots of good points here, I used to do a ton load of shooting chucks at long range. My best summer was taking 458 of themOne must consider MT hunting and where Mule deer live. They will range from the open prairies up to the highest sheep elevation at times. One can not only consider the actual ability to Kill a mature mule deer, most modern rifle chamberings will have the ABILITY to do that at 600 yards. He main issue is generally having a rifle with the ability to hit the target consistently in the vitals at this range. As such, WIND is often the main consideration. Being a native MT boy and lived and hunted here my entire, wind is the killer. On the prairies you can have clean wind but often times not, a 20 mph wind is just another day on the east side of the rockies.
Wind is the reason i started designed my APS wildcats 20 years ago. Wind is the reason why my Raptor and Stalker rifles are here today.
Many looked at my wildcats and thought, those are massively overpowered for simply hunting deer……. Here in Montana and many western states, killing the game is not the challange, hitting the game in the vitals on the first shot is the challenge because of the wind. That is why my idea of the perfect deer rifle is a 7mm with the ability to drive a 180 gr bullet to +3400 fps or a 195 gr bullet to +3300 fps. Yep, thats my 7mm Allen Magnum and thats out of a conventional weight sporter style hunting rifle.
Now i said thats MY idea of the perfect deer rifle for Montana but that one has the ability to add 1000 yards to your 600 yard range goals. Still, if i am hunting mule deer in Montana, there will very likely be a 7mm AM on my shoulder.
The question however was what is the smallest chambering recommended for mule deer in MT out to 600 yards. The question alone worries me a bit, SMALLEST….. why in the world would we want the absolute minimum? With the smallest, the margins for error are the smallest as well…. If recoil is an issue, there are many fine ways to eliminate that issue…….
But if a customer came to me asking me my recommendation to this exact question. I would likely say at least a 6.5mm round with the ability to drive a minimum of 140 gr bullet weight to at least 3000 fps. That would be my absolute minimum. So something such as the 6.5-06 AI, 6.5 wsm class and up.
Ideal minimum would be a 270 or 7mm with at least 150-160 gr bullet weight and ability to drive those to around 3000 fps or more. 270 wsm, 7mm wsm, 7mm rem mag
Are these required for mule deer, nope, but hitting the target precisely at 600 yards greatly complicates this project.
I can hear it already, all the anti-magnum crowd typing away to argue the need for this class of rifle. Anyone that says its just as easy to hit a one moa sized target at 600 yards with their 6mm creed compared to doing the same with a 7mm wsm in a 10-15 mph variable wind is either not overly experienced or flat out being dishonest. They can talk all they want about numbers on paper, when the bullets actually get in the air, its obvious, the larger rounds make hitting small targets at longer ranges easier.
Then we get into the margin of error issues which unfortunately in the real world are legit concerns. Hit s mule deer on the fringes of the vitals at 600 yards with a 243 or 6mm creed an likely you will have a rather challenging recovery project ahead of you at best or loose a mortally wounded animal at worse.
Same hit with a 7mm wsm or better yet 7mm AM
In my opinion, looking for the SMALLEST possible option that could work is not the best choice. And often times will result in a less then ideal outcome which can cause much headaches and frustrations…
Good summer for me, bad for the furry buggers. I used my 7 Mashburn Super a lot, as well my 6/06. I always wanted to use my hunt guns as it was wonderful practice.
You mentioned the diff between the 7 WSM (I shoot one of those a lot these days) and the 6 CM @ 600 yds in a 10-15 wind. No doubt for the most part and with like minded bullets in a 10 mph wind there is 4.3" give or take depending on what bullet and what speed one chooses naturally. For me within reason I am fine with whatever the drift is as long as it's consistent which can be tough with the shifting winds from here to there. All part of what makes it fun eh?
The Big 7's have the edge no doubt and I do love my Mashburn.
Have a super day all, life is short, shoot straight!
If you don't mind me asking what kind of velocities are you getting with 80-88 grain bullets and what is the barrel length?
I'm running long throat 26" tubes, and while I can easily reach 3,500+fps with the 80's, I get a little better groups around the 3,400fps mark. I push the 88's at the 3,300+fps mark.
