Single digit E.S. dont mean squat.

[Hugnot]

More on StaBall HD & the 6.5-06

I shot some groups & got some Magneto Speed chrony results









Groups tightened up a bit with another .5 grains of Staball HD, 56.5 on July 8. 57.0 on July 18. I replaced the trigger on my Ruger MKII with a Timney adjusted at a little less than 3 pounds for the group shot on July 18 & that helped. Groups fired without Magneto Speed bayonet.

Best group with ammo having extreme spread of 63 fps - needs improvement.

Group at top, not that bad despite extreme spread of 63 fps.
This lot of ammo would produce an average velocity difference of 38 fps between high & low averages with a 95 % probability. At 1000 yards, with a 200-yard zero, average elevation differences on-target hits could be expected between 297 & 307 inches, about 1 MOA. My goal is to get the ES under 20 with a 20-round sample.

Magic would occur with good vibes & zippo extreme spread.

Culpepper has it right!

 

[Mike6158]

Just wanted to share something with you guys. I bought another labradar ran them side by side this weekend with multiple guns. 30 nosler 2 normas and lapua improved. Both reading different. One read es 1 sd .8. Other es 30 over same loads side by side. Every gun being different but every other geoup or so it be that far apart. I believe es matters but only if its correct. So i can see why some people dont think it matters. I think it does but if its shooting accurately at distance then the es is closer then the chrono says.

How did you trigger the LabRadars? I had to switch to an external trigger to mine to be reliable.

 

[Mike6158]

Chronoplotter makes evaluating the LabRadar, magnetospeed, etc data pretty easy and it's donateware.

 

[Barehandlineman11]

External trigger

 

[SSG Graybush]

More on StaBall HD & the 6.5-06

I shot some groups & got some Magneto Speed chrony results









Groups tightened up a bit with another .5 grains of Staball HD, 56.5 on July 8. 57.0 on July 18. I replaced the trigger on my Ruger MKII with a Timney adjusted at a little less than 3 pounds for the group shot on July 18 & that helped. Groups fired without Magneto Speed bayonet.

Best group with ammo having extreme spread of 63 fps - needs improvement.

Group at top, not that bad despite extreme spread of 63 fps.
This lot of ammo would produce an average velocity difference of 38 fps between high & low averages with a 95 % probability. At 1000 yards, with a 200-yard zero, average elevation differences on-target hits could be expected between 297 & 307 inches, about 1 MOA. My goal is to get the ES under 20 with a 20-round sample.

Magic would occur with good vibes & zippo extreme spread.

Culpepper has it right!

I shoot a 112 gr MB's in my 6XC. I get 7-8 thou variance in cbto, with a vld stem, from 2 or 3 different lots. So I started short seating them 10 thou, measure and sort into lots by cbto, and then seat them to desired cbto by lots. I could then get desired cbto plus or minus 1 thou mostly. This helped sink groups to .25, from .4ish.
Those 6mm Match Burners are the worst in that aspect, was curious if 6.5's are better? They shoot good though, bc seems good too, shot them to 1143 yards in a match and got hits. I should buy a new stem or try to hone that one. Another guy I know with Lee dies gets 2 thou variance. Redding comp seater is killing me with this combo for some reason.
And a while back I tested my Prochrono, with a Magnetospeed on, with a Labradar set up. They all were within 5 fps. With the Magnetospeed being in the middle mostly.
No matter what the chrono says it should be verified at distance, and adjust the ballistic app/dope. And then with Applied Ballistics, I can go up 7000 ft of altitude and/or down 40°, and still be spot on. It's never let me down. Only shooting temp stable powders imo helps the consistency.

 

[Dirtrax]

More on StaBall HD & the 6.5-06

I shot some groups & got some Magneto Speed chrony results









Groups tightened up a bit with another .5 grains of Staball HD, 56.5 on July 8. 57.0 on July 18. I replaced the trigger on my Ruger MKII with a Timney adjusted at a little less than 3 pounds for the group shot on July 18 & that helped. Groups fired without Magneto Speed bayonet.

Best group with ammo having extreme spread of 63 fps - needs improvement.

Group at top, not that bad despite extreme spread of 63 fps.
This lot of ammo would produce an average velocity difference of 38 fps between high & low averages with a 95 % probability. At 1000 yards, with a 200-yard zero, average elevation differences on-target hits could be expected between 297 & 307 inches, about 1 MOA. My goal is to get the ES under 20 with a 20-round sample.

Magic would occur with good vibes & zippo extreme spread.

Culpepper has it right!

The argument isn't that es or sd aren't valuable tools, but wait until your single digit load won't shoot like the one in the teens at 1000-1200 yds.

 

[vavaroutsos]

Took my 6.5x300wsm out this morning wanted to shot 3 rounds through it just to verify since I'm taking it to Wyoming in Sept.
Here's a prime example of a load going off of single digit E.S doesn't mean anything, believe the target! E.S. WAS 21 FPS
One on the left was cold bore but could have been me to i shot this with my bi- pod I always do on my hunting rifles.

I think it does matter, but it's not the only thing that can cause large groups. Just having a low E.S. is not sufficient for small groups at distance, but I do believe it is necessary once the distance becomes far enough.

 

[Barehandlineman11]

my point was i think the misconception is chronographs read incorrectly. Been truing the velocity for years with balistics wouldnt have too if velocities were read correctly. Single digit es sd matters for small groups at 1k especially further. If load shoots at 1k with es of 30 I guarantee the chrono is wrong. I had two side by side reading polar opposite reads. They would flip flop as well and sometimes be agreeing but not often

 

[Barehandlineman11]

And older chronos guarantee were worse probably why older guys go off target only

 

[QuietTexan]

Those 6mm Match Burners are the worst in that aspect, was curious if 6.5's are better?

Do you sort the bullets by overall length, or BTO, or anything? Match Burners were so bad I stopped trying to sort them, worse than Hornady match bullets. I was using them in 243AI and 6.5CM, worked about the same in each. I gave up worrying about COL variations after setting up the die with sorted bullets.

 

[SSG Graybush]

Do you sort the bullets by overall length, or BTO, or anything? Match Burners were so bad I stopped trying to sort them, worse than Hornady match bullets. I was using them in 243AI and 6.5CM, worked about the same in each. I gave up worrying about COL variations after setting up the die with sorted bullets.

No I didn't pre measure the bbto or bullet length, I seated them short by 10 thou, and then measured the cbto. I never measure coal. Ever, unless there's a possible mag issue.
It's like they used 6 or 7 molds to press the bullets in. The ojives are just slightly different. I'd bet my buddy's Lee die has a wider orifice, making contact closer to the bearing surface.
BC is good for a 112 gr. They shoot good but they definitely need that sorting step. I couldn't get any other high bc bullets at the time and bought 500. At about 400 rds, I got em pretty tuned in and stayed with them. And they were the highest bc 6mm at the time, beating even the 115's.

 

[L.Sherm]

I think it does matter, but it's not the only thing that can cause large groups. Just having a low E.S. is not sufficient for small groups at distance, but I do believe it is necessary once the distance becomes far enough.

When is far enough in a hunting situation to say you have to have a single digit E.S?
I've seen one of Alex's shooters shoot some really small stuff with high teens and low 20's at 870 were we used ro shoot alot. Ive also seen some really bad groups by myself and him with single digit E.S. I took my 6.5x300wsm out again and this time 22fps E.S so its repeat and as you can see 0 vertical although I would like it to stand up a little I may tweak on it just a touch to get it to stand up some.
I cant complain to much other than I would like a little more of a triangle shape.
The black sticky dot is 1.5" the group i measured is just over 2".
Last year I shot a 3" group exactly like this one at 870.
I'm using more NK tension these days than I ever have i check with pin guages as you can see I used a .259

 

[Justice1327]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but ES is what happened in the past; whereas, SD is a predictor or model of what is likely to occur.

 

[Muddyboots]

Wow, what an interesting read. Where the heck did the "class" go on LRH? The inability to debate disagreement with class and dignity is such an indictment to what our society has become. "Karen" is alive and well here.

So for another 10 pages, EXTREMELY low ES FOR HUNTING to a distance where the bullet is rated for its OWN minimal performance velocity on game that you are are using, may not be such a big deal.

BTW in case anyone is interested, the Labradar per cent ERROR is +- 0.1% or +-0.1 m/s@1,000 m/s. So 6.56fps total potential swing shot to shot. So chronograph velocity numbers are not true as some think.