Since I dont see a terminal performance thread...

[bpcrshooter]

Between my father and me, we have shot plenty of game with the 45-70 (I now use a 45-100) hell we each have one in a pistol and I use the 300, 350 and 405's in it, anyways just bout every deer I have shot runs about 25-30yrds and nose dives in the dirt. Even with a 541gr 20-1 lead bullet. Dad shot his moose with a 405 @ 79yrds and the guide said it stood there an shook then tipped over. I have recovered hundreds of 300-600gr bullets from dirt, sand, water, ect from 50yrds to 1000yrds all expanded to some degree. I prefer the 405 around 1600-1700fps for big game you need long for caliber to get good accuracy and that comes with weight 300gr is small. they killed thousands of buffalo with a 500+gr. If you have the ability, cast your own out of 20-1, 16-1, RNFP gas check and go huntin it may take a bit but there isn't much that will walk away from a well placed 45-70 round. Rcbs 300,405 works well in my Marlin.
Good Luck and Good Hunting!!!

 

[WildRose]

"An exiting bullet is still doing damage to soft tissue. A slowing and stopped bullet no longer does damage. There is no such thing as an "energy dump". It is a marketing ploy."

I'm going to respectfully disagree on this point. An exiting bullet is no longer doing any damage to anything except what is beyond the animal. A bullet that has stopped inside is no longer doing any damage either, but it has already done all that it was capable of doing and the bullet that stopped inside DID display an "Energy dump"! All of the bullets energy was expended inside of the animal. The bullet with the pass through did NOT expend all of its energy inside the animal. I've killed critters both ways. They both work, but I believe the bullet that doesn't exit must hit harder.

The exiting bullet was doing additional damage right up until it exited. Following that exit the additional ruptured tissue it collided with causes increased bleeding and helps to collapse the lungs which fill even quicker with blood.

Out of that exit wound flows the additional lost blood from the additional damaged tissue making the animal easier to track and causes it to bleed out even quicker.

I bought into the whole "energy dump" spiel for years until I stopped shooting highly frangible bullets like the Nosler Ballistic tips at game on a fluke when the only shop carrying reloading supplied in town ran out of them.

I started then loading Hornady Interbonds and saw immediately the benefits of having that exit hole and all of the additional damage and bleeding.

Hundreds of animals since I'm still quite convinced that two holes are better than one.

 

[WildRose]

You actually started a very interesting discusion jrsolocam. When it gets right down to how often do we really examine what the bullets we shoot do. Except for Steve creating deadly bullets is his living.
I took a close look one year when the CT150gr Nosler I shot did not perform the way I thought it should have. It was a 200yd shot on a broadside Whitetail buck. My load was 150gr CT out of my 280 Rem with a muzzle velocity of about 2800fps. The bullet never made it to the second lung and never hit the shoulder just skin and ribs. To say I was shocked would be a huge understatement. In my mind at least that bullet should have passed through or at least made it to the other side of the deer. Maybe I am wrong maybe that is how the bullet is to perform if it is it's not for me.

I shot quite a few of the Winchester CT's in 7mm Rem and 7mm STW and found they generally performed very similarly to the Ballistic Tip rather than the Accubond unfortunately.

Went right back to the interbond after seeing similar results on a dozen deer and quite a few hogs.

 

[WildRose]

This is not fair to you. Sounds like people that have never killed a domestic animal. We are really lucky to have the bullets / broadheads we have. Sometimes it goes really well and sometimes it doesn't. I am sure that some of the flames come from people that have never found their critter. If you have never made an animal suffer you haven't hunted much. No one does it intentionally. Unless they are bad people. You feel really bad but you move on. In my opinion you are trying to educate. Anyone trying to make you feel bad should be ashamed. I thank you for your courage. Sincerely!!! My name is on my profile

You move on while trying to learn from your mistakes so as not to repeat them in the future.

If we fail to learn from our failures it's nothing but a wasted opportunity to go along with the lost or suffering animal we then had to put down.

 

[WildRose]

I agree with you Wild Rose there really are no guarantees when we shoot an animal. Even though something works 99% of the time it is that1% that can get ugly.
This is a dangerous thread because it shows how things don't always work right. We should all know that as hunters and ranchers.

I see it more as an opportunity rather than dangerous.

The ability to share such information in real time like we can do today and on a worldwide scale sure beats stories around the campfire or over a drink in a bar.

 

[WildRose]

Between my father and me, we have shot plenty of game with the 45-70 (I now use a 45-100) hell we each have one in a pistol and I use the 300, 350 and 405's in it, anyways just bout every deer I have shot runs about 25-30yrds and nose dives in the dirt. Even with a 541gr 20-1 lead bullet. Dad shot his moose with a 405 @ 79yrds and the guide said it stood there an shook then tipped over. I have recovered hundreds of 300-600gr bullets from dirt, sand, water, ect from 50yrds to 1000yrds all expanded to some degree. I prefer the 405 around 1600-1700fps for big game you need long for caliber to get good accuracy and that comes with weight 300gr is small. they killed thousands of buffalo with a 500+gr. If you have the ability, cast your own out of 20-1, 16-1, RNFP gas check and go huntin it may take a bit but there isn't much that will walk away from a well placed 45-70 round. Rcbs 300,405 works well in my Marlin.
Good Luck and Good Hunting!!!

PMC used to produce a rather hot load with a proprietary 350gr JHP that reminded of the old Remington "Bear Claw" soft point with the scalloped mouth of the jacket. Those things hit like a sledge hammer to the head, expanded to around 3/4 of an inch and did not break up. We shot them through some live mesquite trees (very hard wood) up to 10-12" in diameter.

Devastating big hog and big elk stoppers.

Unfortunately they quit producing them 20 plus years ago. Winchester came up with a "Bullet in a Bullet" design they made for a few years in only select calibers, .41 mag and 45-70 being two of them. Had I known they'd quit producing them relatively soon I'd have bought a case of those and the PMC's but I couldn't imagine they would not both make their way into the permanent market.

 

[WildRose]

UOTE="WildRose, post: 1355552, member: 30902"]PMC used to produce a rather hot load with a proprietary 350gr JHP that reminded of the old Remington "Bear Claw" soft point with the scalloped mouth of the jacket. Those things hit like a sledge hammer to the head, expanded to around 3/4 of an inch and did not break up. We shot them through some live mesquite trees (very hard wood) up to 10-12" in diameter.

Devastating big hog and big elk stoppers.

Unfortunately they quit producing them 20 plus years ago. Winchester came up with a "Bullet in a Bullet" design they made for a few years in only select calibers, .41 mag and 45-70 being two of them. Had I known they'd quit producing them relatively soon I'd have bought a case of those and the PMC's but I couldn't imagine they would not both make their way into the permanent market.

View attachment 82999[/QUOTE]One more

 

[WildRose]

Last one... .

I guess the production cost was just too high to keep producing them. Too bad! Great handgun and lever action bullet.

 

[Wild Bill G]

Has any one here shot the BarnesX bullets in their 45-70's. If they perform like the other X bullets on game they should be devestating killers.

 

[desertcj]

I shot quite a few of the Winchester CT's in 7mm Rem and 7mm STW and found they generally performed very similarly to the Ballistic Tip rather than the Accubond unfortunately.

Went right back to the interbond after seeing similar results on a dozen deer and quite a few hogs.

That's because Winchester Ct's ARE Nosler Ballistic Tips. Also, no need to track when they are still where you shot them. Obviously, stuff happens and they don't always drop but I've really not heard of an animal dropping from a copper/mono bullet. I'm a bow Hunter as well, so I'm very aware of two holes vs one.

 

[bpcrshooter]

Has any one here shot the BarnesX bullets in their 45-70's. If they perform like the other X bullets on game they should be devestating killers.

Yes I have, They work very well but, I use the Hornady 405 interlock for the 1/2in bigger group size @100yrds its doesnt matter on large game. you have to ask yourself "how far am I willing to shoot?" lighter bullets will give you flatter shot but not be accurate at long (250+yrds) range, not enough length/weight. your barrel is probably 1-18 twist or so and keeping those light bullets spinning is hard at distance. For the extra recoil I choose the 405 and up for "large" big game, deer that's a different story 300/350's work great (I hunt in woods and dont shoot much past 100yrds). The cartridge was not meant as a speed demon it was meant to do massive damage and shoot long range. Plenty, hell thousands of bull buffalo were killed at 1100-1300fps with a 500gr bullet. FWIW....I would rather shoot a 500gr at 1300/1400 than shoot a 300 at 1900fps. My 541gr 20-1 lead bullets open up to .997in and pass thru 6gal jugs of water, that enuf for me!!!

Speer makes a good bullet as well, but for me hornady has never failed

 

[bpcrshooter]

Last one... .

View attachment 83001

I guess the production cost was just too high to keep producing them. Too bad! Great handgun and lever action bullet.

damm those are some sweet looking bullets!!! I would love to find some for my 41mag!!!

 

[fergusfw]

I just noticed there is an ignore feature now. Hmmmmmm... got me a list. mtmuley

That works both ways. Some people are jerks on purpose they just can't communicate.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Sounds a lot like the Lehigh Defense controlled chaos? Sounds good either way and I think we are basically on the same page. I do like the mono/copper bullets fyi.

I will still say that bullets DO have brakes and those brakes are called expansion. When a bullet fragments and does not pass through, I'm going to have to say that yes, that bullet did in fact "Throw on the brakes" and all energy that bullet had went into the animal. I saw this first hand a few weeks ago while Antelope hunting. My buddy double lunged a buck at 325yds with a 7mm mag 150gr trophy copper. 7mm entrance, quarter size exit....300yd recovery. I made a poor hit with my .243(105gr HPBT) due to wind and a walking animal that was 6" high and 6" back...did not exit. Animal dropped in its tracks! Found the jacket under the hide on the far side. "Energy dump"....

My daughter shot a muley doe a couple of weeks ago back in the liver. This usually is not a good place to hit and results in a lot of tracking. That deer did not even wiggle. Dropped where it stood.

I have a bunch of pics from a doe that I shot a couple of days ago that show massive damage to the lungs. It was a classic lung shot and she ran about 100y and slid to a stop under a log down hill. I could not get a pic that did it justice, but on impact there was chunks of lung and blood sprayed all over the hillside where she was standing. I have had more drop to this shot than not. Sometimes they don't and they run until they run out of blood.

I'll post those pic here when I get the chance.

Steve