Since I dont see a terminal performance thread...

[Wild Bill G]

Thank you Battering Ram. You are right real life is the real test.

 

[mtmuley]

Bill and Ram, hope you guys are happy together. Out. mtmuley

 

[jrsolocam]

This was done purely as a test of the rifle/bullet. Any reasonable hunter would expect one or two 300 gr to the bread box would end it quickly. It didnt this time. I wonder how many folks here have witnessed a rodeo where someone takes 5 shots to anchor an animal? So its ok to do that , but not this in a controlled environment? **** happens. Comparisons to a butcher shop are not relevant. He is planning a moose/grizz hunt and did a real life test. He is not cruel to his animals. His animals get better grass and vet care than most. I joined this site so i wouldnt have to deal with the libs that are all over facebook, twitter etc...

Ive seen animal cruelty as an Ag Lender. Ive seen a corral with 20 dead cows and 20 that are dead on there feet cause the rancher couldnt afford feed. It smelled horrible. That is animal cruelty. Shooting a cow with a 45-70 is not.

 

[WildRose]

Friend of mine had to put an old cow down. Beef cow. Just got a new 45-70. 300 grain Hornady Lever revolution. 50 yards. First shot behind the shoulder. No reaction. 2nd shot no reaction.

8th shot finally dropped her at about 80 yards. 8 exit holes right behind the shoulder. This changes my thoughts on mass/velocity somewhat. Thought it was interesting on a 1000+ lb animal.

If you don't take out the shoulders, spine, or brain they don't go down instantly.

I don't care what you shoot them with unless you interrupt the CNS/Break the shoulders it takes time for them to go down.

A half inch hole through the lungs does not make for a quick death.

Animals go down when either their ability to keep going ends.Interrupt the CNS is the quickest, BP hitting zero is the next. When they brain can't get signals to the muscles or the muscles starve for oxygen they cease to be able to motivate. Break the shoulders and they cease to be able to motivate. Combine any two of these and they go down instantly and expire rapidly.

 

[WildRose]

Friend's cow aside, terminal bullet performance has got to be the most neglected area of study in hunting. And some of the bullet/ammo makers are culprits. Marketing a bullet as fully effective on any size game, at any impact velocity between 20 fps to 5,000 fps ( I exaggerate, but not by much) is an issue as the market shifts to encourage longer and longer shots. The fact is that a highly effective bullet at 50 yards is almost never going to be effective at 500 yards and vice versa. And it's not as simple as velocity vs. mass. Each design has it's own sweet spots and its limitations. Bore diameter alters considerations drastically. I'm not the expert. Nathan Foster, who has contributed articles to this site, has done more study in this area than anyone I'm aware of and is an unbelievable resource of knowledge and experience. But I continue to be concerned by some manufacturers' willingness to use unrealistic expectations in their marketing. If I see one more bullet design pushed as the next greatest thing with a picture of a gel block..... As shooters and hunters we've got to grow a culture of careful study, analysis, and dialogue among ourselves that includes terminal bullet performance and refuses to treat magazine and internet ads as gospel.

Now, back to the friends' cow. Do you know the barrel length of the rifle? If you know barrel length and if the published velocity of the load that was being used is to be trusted, and we assume that the published velocity was based on a standard 24" barrel (or even if it was based on a different barrel length), then the impact velocity should be something you can calculate. You've got one of two things: an impact velocity number that you know that bullet needs to stay above, or reason to call the manufacturer about a possible flawed batch of bullets. Every bullet on the market will pinhole if it strikes slow enough. Were the exit wounds pinholes, expanded holes, or just fragment exits? The type of exit wound drastically alters the analysis. I doubt Hornady expects this bullet fail at 50 yards on a large bodied animal. But I also doubt Hornady expected bullets sold in America to be used to make chest cavity shots on bovines. There are a lot of variables. Again, Foster is the best resource I'm aware of. His site is www.ballisticstudies.com and the Knowledgebase section has a library of field study based information on a ton of chamberings and the available bullets for them, including .45-70. The articles he published on this site on game killing fundamentals are also important reading and applicable to your situation.

We spend a tremendous amount of time and bandwidth discussing terminal performance issues here.

 

[WildRose]

MTMuley my PETA point is spot on they feed on fighting amungst us. As hunters we fight over baiting or not baiting bears all of our arguments are used against us. Another thing is we have no idea it took the guy to fire 8 shots. Remember also we consider a shot to the chest of a deer a fast humane kill. To me this guy found out what many of us never get a chance to find out in a controlled environment. My beef might lean more toward Hornady on this one. As I stated what if that had been a Moose in the feild.

It's not the rifle, caliber, or bullet at issue here, it's bullet placement.

There's nothing on the continent you can't drop dirt dead with that combo with proper placement, I know, I shoot the same caliber and the same bullet in it.

 

[WildRose]

This was done purely as a test of the rifle/bullet. Any reasonable hunter would expect one or two 300 gr to the bread box would end it quickly. It didnt this time. I wonder how many folks here have witnessed a rodeo where someone takes 5 shots to anchor an animal? So its ok to do that , but not this in a controlled environment? **** happens. Comparisons to a butcher shop are not relevant. He is planning a moose/grizz hunt and did a real life test. He is not cruel to his animals. His animals get better grass and vet care than most. I joined this site so i wouldnt have to deal with the libs that are all over facebook, twitter etc...

Ive seen animal cruelty as an Ag Lender. Ive seen a corral with 20 dead cows and 20 that are dead on there feet cause the rancher couldnt afford feed. It smelled horrible. That is animal cruelty. Shooting a cow with a 45-70 is not.

Having to shoot anything 8 times is just wrong period.

Proper placement prevents **** poor results.

 

[Canhunter35]

Your friend felt the need to test the results of a .45 cal bullet on a cow at 80 yds? This is ridiculous. I thought he just didn't know any better.
FYI I am a rancher, **** happens, but seriously you don't perform 'terminal result tests' on domestic animals. You shoot a carcass and dissect the results. Otherwise if it's recommended as a hunting bullet, assume it is and use it appropriately. The other times are accidents that must be taken care of.
By the way, Your guy who was letting cattle starve is animal cruelty...you sell them if you don't have feed.
This is a hunting site: pls post results on hunting

 

[jrsolocam]

Having to shoot anything 8 times is just wrong period.

Proper placement prevents **** poor results.

I agree 8 times is somehow wrong. But unless you go for a brain/spine shot you keep putting them in the bread basket. Even spine shots dont always kill them. They just cant walk. Still alive. Need another shot unless you are a cowboy and grab your knife. Ever seen someone do that? Wont make the network news. I guess i dont know why you are so ****ed off. Every effort short of a brain shot was employed. Dont moralize it.

 

[Wild Bill G]

I hate to say this but I have seen a cow shot in the head right where you are supposed too and still be alive. The thing dropped in her tracks and a poke to the eye with rifle barrel she's dead. All of a sudden it starts breathing everything else says dead another shot and yes dead. This shows that no matter what somethings just don't work like words on paper say.
I do not like to break shoulders on animals I want to eat as you lose more meat. Bullets kill by means of hydrostatic shock. The wave of fluid pushed by the expanding bullet sets animal into shock and kills it. This is also aided by the blood loss from the bullet hole. Bows are considered humane ways to kill but kill by hemeraging the animal. As we all know blood loss is a bad thing. Either way I would not want an anti hunter with me when I shoot an animal. My reason seldom does your game drop and never move again even when shot in the head. We can learn from this that trusting everything our bullet makers tell us is not true. A bullet will not always perform perfectly and some animals just don't want to die.

 

[WildRose]

I agree 8 times is somehow wrong. But unless you go for a brain/spine shot you keep putting them in the bread basket. Even spine shots dont always kill them. They just cant walk. Still alive. Need another shot unless you are a cowboy and grab your knife. Ever seen someone do that? Wont make the network news. I guess i dont know why you are so ****ed off. Every effort short of a brain shot was employed. Dont moralize it.

Good point, I've not only seen it, I've done it.

To shorten a long story this weekend I head shot a big hog on the run who literally cartwheeled and hit the ground appearing to be stone dead.

I watched him for thirty seconds or so not seeing a breath or single kick so I went to retrieve him leaving the gun in the truck.

Sure as hell he springs back to life when I'm about thirty yards away.

All I had was a pocket knife and a pair of running shoes and what followed was an ugly wild pig rodeo that lasted a good 20 minutes.

We were both so sore and tired by the end I herded him close enough to the truck to grab a pistol and put one straight into the brain.

Unfortunately my lead was just a bit too far forward and a shade high.

Turns out the first bullet failed to penetrate but broke up and sheared off of his skull.

Third time in a year the SGK's have done something similar so I won't be shooting anymore of them except at predators and when I'm out I won't be buying anymore.

To ensure immediate death with a spine/brain shot you have to interrupt the signal before the nerves which innervate the heart and lungs get very far away.

Contrary to what one would think the key nerves controlling the heart/lungs do not run through the spinal cord, the come out of the brain through the skull and run parallel to the spine for only a short distance before diverging.

Here's a picture of a pig's nervous system, it's very similar in all quadrupedal mammals and not too dissimilar from ours.

 

[WildRose]

I hate to say this but I have seen a cow shot in the head right where you are supposed too and still be alive. The thing dropped in her tracks and a poke to the eye with rifle barrel she's dead. All of a sudden it starts breathing everything else says dead another shot and yes dead. This shows that no matter what somethings just don't work like words on paper say.
I do not like to break shoulders on animals I want to eat as you lose more meat. Bullets kill by means of hydrostatic shock. The wave of fluid pushed by the expanding bullet sets animal into shock and kills it. This is also aided by the blood loss from the bullet hole. Bows are considered humane ways to kill but kill by hemeraging the animal. As we all know blood loss is a bad thing. Either way I would not want an anti hunter with me when I shoot an animal. My reason seldom does your game drop and never move again even when shot in the head. We can learn from this that trusting everything our bullet makers tell us is not true. A bullet will not always perform perfectly and some animals just don't want to die.

Hydrostatic shock is only a small part of the equation. There is no hydrostatic shock with an arrow. The broad head simply lacerates a large cross section of the vessels and they bleed out.

The larger the hole, the more rapid the blood loss.

Hydrostatic shock helps because it essentially explodes blood vessels beyond the permanent wound channel but the lower the energy on impact the less of an effect it has.

Small caliber and particularly low velocity shots to the head often fail to penetrate the skull and do minimal damage if the do often not penetrating deep enough into the brain to have an immediate effect on the necessary portions of the brain to cause instant brain death.

I've seen quite a few large, dangerouns African animals such as elephant, hippo, and rhino hit perfectly with solids from African magnums like the .416 Rigby and even with brain shots not go down or expire instantly.

I've seen several Elephants on video hit perfectly with a frontal brain shot with again solids keep charging and require immediate backup shots.

 

[Joshuak12]

We spend a tremendous amount of time and bandwidth discussing terminal performance issues here.

Didn't intend to denigrate this site. This site is an abnormal one, in the positive sense. Most hunters would benefit from some time on this site. Having said that, there seems to be more eagerness here today to correct, critique, and call out other posters than there was a few years ago when I was on more frequently. The art of polite, constructive criticism is one we shouldn't let die. I made my attempt. I think I'll leave this discussion with you all. Have a good one.

 

[Wild Bill G]

I agree with you Wild Rose there really are no guarantees when we shoot an animal. Even though something works 99% of the time it is that1% that can get ugly.
This is a dangerous thread because it shows how things don't always work right. We should all know that as hunters and ranchers.