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Since I dont see a terminal performance thread...
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These conversations have been going on since the first human banged a rock off the head of dinner. They became more intense when we discovered that a sharp stick works too and is easier to jab with or fling at the quarry.
To illustrate, an archaeology team working in IIRC, Norway, working on a mesolithic site (5,000 -10000 years old) asked the question: "Is there a correlation between arrowhead size and game animal?"
They indeed did find a correlation. The hypothetical criterion was the time required for the animal to faint from loss of blood pressure in the brain. In particular, could that time be less than that needed to run more than about 100 meters, or ten seconds?
To be sure, the wound channel had to intersect parts of the heart and blood vessels that communicate directly with the cranium. Too much time was needed for blood getting there by a roundabout way, or mere bleed out for the 100 meter rule to be satisfied.
Modern tests on live beef confirmed the hypothesis. Then some folks compared the size of the wound channels created by modern hunting bullets and discovered that, indeed, we see much the same correlation between animal size and weight of expanding bullet for hunting.
I extended their results into an algorithm that yields suggested bullet sizes for different size game animals. There are four bullet types in the formula because cup and core bullets don't behave the same way as bonded, partition and lead free hunting bullets.
Go here to try it out:
Ideal Bullet Weight
To illustrate, an archaeology team working in IIRC, Norway, working on a mesolithic site (5,000 -10000 years old) asked the question: "Is there a correlation between arrowhead size and game animal?"
They indeed did find a correlation. The hypothetical criterion was the time required for the animal to faint from loss of blood pressure in the brain. In particular, could that time be less than that needed to run more than about 100 meters, or ten seconds?
To be sure, the wound channel had to intersect parts of the heart and blood vessels that communicate directly with the cranium. Too much time was needed for blood getting there by a roundabout way, or mere bleed out for the 100 meter rule to be satisfied.
Modern tests on live beef confirmed the hypothesis. Then some folks compared the size of the wound channels created by modern hunting bullets and discovered that, indeed, we see much the same correlation between animal size and weight of expanding bullet for hunting.
I extended their results into an algorithm that yields suggested bullet sizes for different size game animals. There are four bullet types in the formula because cup and core bullets don't behave the same way as bonded, partition and lead free hunting bullets.
Go here to try it out:
Ideal Bullet Weight
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
I am going to ignore all the ag animal parts of this thread.
That said I have spent a lot of time and money on terminal performance of bullets. My own in particular. I got to the point of making bullets because I was not satisfied with the results that I got over the last 30 years of hunting. My personal quest lead me to pure copper bullets. There were some comments on this thread expressing irritation with bullet makers that claim good terminal performance at high and low vel impacts. I will only talk about our bullets because they are the ones that we have tested. Prior to my bullets we only tested on hunting trips and made decisions based on what we saw happen to our harvested animals.
With our bullets we test them at high vel impacts and low vel impacts. In the quest to get the results that we feel are necessary for good bullet performance we have thousands of dollars of copper on the shop floor that we will no longer use for making bullets. Countless hours of work trying different materials and bullet forms. The copper alloy that we are working with now is as close to perfect as we can get. So far. We will never stop trying different stuff. The bullets that we market don't go to market unless we are very certain that they will perform as advertised. And trust me when I say that I never stop worrying about it. I dread the day when I get the call claiming that our bullet failed on an animal.
Here is what we have found and accomplished. We have determined that there is a minimum hollow point size that will work reliably for terminal performance. As long range guys we have tried to chase the higher bc that can be achieved with smaller meplats. We thought that we had that figured out last year in media testing. fortunately at the same time we got the opportunity to test that bullet design on an elk damage hunt. We were disappointed and that bullet did not go to market. At the same time and conditions we were able to test our marketed design and confirm much better terminal performance.
When it comes to high velocity impacts we have not been able to push a bullet fast enough to cause it to fail. Their is no point through the range of vel impacts that the bullet ceases to perform correctly until the vel gets slow enough to stop proper deformation.
Like everyone here we too have opinions about terminal performance. It is our opinion that just because a bullet deforms properly at very low vel it does not make it have good terminal performance at that low vel. This is why we advertise an 1800fps minimum impact vel for our hunting bullets. It was said in this thread that bullets kill due to the shock. There is a small amount of truth in this statement, but mostly campfire lore. Bullets and arrows kill in the same way, hemorrhage. Bullets do it by tearing vital tissue and arrows do it by cutting said tissue. Sharp cuts bleed much faster than torn tissue. Thus the bullet must damage a larger amount of tissue to bleed as fast as arrow. The slower a bullet is traveling the less tissue damage it does beyond it's own dia. This is why bullets that stop inside of an animal do less damage than the bullet that deforms properly and exits. As the bullet slows down inside the animal the disrupted tissue proportionally lessons. There is no smart bullet that knows when it is on the far side of an animal and suddenly puts on the brakes. Likewise there is no smart bullet that knows that it has achieved 3" of penetration and then begins to deform. The faster the impact vel the more quickly the deformation happens.
So our goal has been to create a bullet that will deform properly very quickly at all the vel range and maintain the retained shape that will disrupt soft tissue all the way through the animal and exit. An exiting bullet is still doing damage to soft tissue. A slowing and stopped bullet no longer does damage. There is no such thing as an "energy dump". It is a marketing ploy.
I do believe that there is shock that sometimes causes an animal to drop on the shot when there is no apparent impact to the cns. (central nervous system) I spoke with a veterinarian about this and he confirmed my theory.
We have all witnessed the animal that drops to the shot when hit solidly in the pump house like they were struck by lightning. Then watched another of the same species of animal hit in the same way with the same equipment run 100y and crash. What is happening here is the luck of timing when the bullet makes impact. Depending on where the heart is in its rhythm of beating the blood pressure in the animal rises and falls. When the animal is struck at the right moment of high blood pressure the added blood pressure of the bullet impact will cause the animal to stroke out causing the quick death. We all love it when this happens and give credit to the greatness of the bullet that we are using. I do. Reality is we should always be prepared for the 100y run that an animal can make while it runs out of blood.
Here in this community that is interested in long range hunting we should all be less expectant of drt impacts at longer ranges. The slower the bullet is going on impact the less damage it will do and the slower the animal will bleed out. This is why we advertise 1800fps minimum impact vel. Not because our bullets do not work below this vel.
Another highly overlooked part of terminal performance is the rotational vel of a bullet. Or the stability factor. Some of you know that I have posted on this quite a bit in the past, but this seems like a good time to do it again. This is a pretty educated crowd here on LRH and most people know that it takes good stability for a bullet to fly accurately and this is a function of the amount of twist in a barrel, the weight of the bullet, and the length of the bullet. With a few other factors. Through our testing we have figured out that the terminal performance of a bullet is greatly impacted by how stable it is.
All hunting bullets are some form of a hollow point and require hydraulics to enter the bullet to cause it to deform properly. Whether it is tipped, hp, or exposed lead tipped. The tipped bullet needs the tip to get out of the way for the hydraulics to enter the bullet and cause it open properly. The hp bullet is already open and needs the hydraulics to enter to open properly. The lead tip bullet basically already has the fluid in the hp. The lead acts as the hydraulic. In all of these cases the bullet must stay aligned with the point forward on impact and stay that way after impact for the hydraulics to continue to push into the hp cavity. The faster the bullet is spinning the longer it will stay point oriented forward. As soon as the bullet makes contact the rotational vel decreases rapidly. As soon as it is slowed enough to cause the bullet to tip or yaw then no longer is the hp of the bullet oriented in the direction of travel and no longer can the hydraulics push into the nose of the bullet and cause it to deform. If a bullet is marginal in stability it can still be very accurate but may not impact with the point fully in line with the bullet travel inhibiting its ability to deform. This is a major reason for when we see a non expanded bullet that looks like a banana.
Though our testing hunting with a bullet that has less than a 1.5sg is not a good idea. 1.5sg should be considered a minimum for good terminal performance. I believe this for all bullets. The higher the sg of a bullet the deeper it will penetrate before it tips over and stops working correctly. The lower the sg the higher the probability of a bullet failure.
Minus the way this thread started, it can still be a good learn for us all.
Steve
That said I have spent a lot of time and money on terminal performance of bullets. My own in particular. I got to the point of making bullets because I was not satisfied with the results that I got over the last 30 years of hunting. My personal quest lead me to pure copper bullets. There were some comments on this thread expressing irritation with bullet makers that claim good terminal performance at high and low vel impacts. I will only talk about our bullets because they are the ones that we have tested. Prior to my bullets we only tested on hunting trips and made decisions based on what we saw happen to our harvested animals.
With our bullets we test them at high vel impacts and low vel impacts. In the quest to get the results that we feel are necessary for good bullet performance we have thousands of dollars of copper on the shop floor that we will no longer use for making bullets. Countless hours of work trying different materials and bullet forms. The copper alloy that we are working with now is as close to perfect as we can get. So far. We will never stop trying different stuff. The bullets that we market don't go to market unless we are very certain that they will perform as advertised. And trust me when I say that I never stop worrying about it. I dread the day when I get the call claiming that our bullet failed on an animal.
Here is what we have found and accomplished. We have determined that there is a minimum hollow point size that will work reliably for terminal performance. As long range guys we have tried to chase the higher bc that can be achieved with smaller meplats. We thought that we had that figured out last year in media testing. fortunately at the same time we got the opportunity to test that bullet design on an elk damage hunt. We were disappointed and that bullet did not go to market. At the same time and conditions we were able to test our marketed design and confirm much better terminal performance.
When it comes to high velocity impacts we have not been able to push a bullet fast enough to cause it to fail. Their is no point through the range of vel impacts that the bullet ceases to perform correctly until the vel gets slow enough to stop proper deformation.
Like everyone here we too have opinions about terminal performance. It is our opinion that just because a bullet deforms properly at very low vel it does not make it have good terminal performance at that low vel. This is why we advertise an 1800fps minimum impact vel for our hunting bullets. It was said in this thread that bullets kill due to the shock. There is a small amount of truth in this statement, but mostly campfire lore. Bullets and arrows kill in the same way, hemorrhage. Bullets do it by tearing vital tissue and arrows do it by cutting said tissue. Sharp cuts bleed much faster than torn tissue. Thus the bullet must damage a larger amount of tissue to bleed as fast as arrow. The slower a bullet is traveling the less tissue damage it does beyond it's own dia. This is why bullets that stop inside of an animal do less damage than the bullet that deforms properly and exits. As the bullet slows down inside the animal the disrupted tissue proportionally lessons. There is no smart bullet that knows when it is on the far side of an animal and suddenly puts on the brakes. Likewise there is no smart bullet that knows that it has achieved 3" of penetration and then begins to deform. The faster the impact vel the more quickly the deformation happens.
So our goal has been to create a bullet that will deform properly very quickly at all the vel range and maintain the retained shape that will disrupt soft tissue all the way through the animal and exit. An exiting bullet is still doing damage to soft tissue. A slowing and stopped bullet no longer does damage. There is no such thing as an "energy dump". It is a marketing ploy.
I do believe that there is shock that sometimes causes an animal to drop on the shot when there is no apparent impact to the cns. (central nervous system) I spoke with a veterinarian about this and he confirmed my theory.
We have all witnessed the animal that drops to the shot when hit solidly in the pump house like they were struck by lightning. Then watched another of the same species of animal hit in the same way with the same equipment run 100y and crash. What is happening here is the luck of timing when the bullet makes impact. Depending on where the heart is in its rhythm of beating the blood pressure in the animal rises and falls. When the animal is struck at the right moment of high blood pressure the added blood pressure of the bullet impact will cause the animal to stroke out causing the quick death. We all love it when this happens and give credit to the greatness of the bullet that we are using. I do. Reality is we should always be prepared for the 100y run that an animal can make while it runs out of blood.
Here in this community that is interested in long range hunting we should all be less expectant of drt impacts at longer ranges. The slower the bullet is going on impact the less damage it will do and the slower the animal will bleed out. This is why we advertise 1800fps minimum impact vel. Not because our bullets do not work below this vel.
Another highly overlooked part of terminal performance is the rotational vel of a bullet. Or the stability factor. Some of you know that I have posted on this quite a bit in the past, but this seems like a good time to do it again. This is a pretty educated crowd here on LRH and most people know that it takes good stability for a bullet to fly accurately and this is a function of the amount of twist in a barrel, the weight of the bullet, and the length of the bullet. With a few other factors. Through our testing we have figured out that the terminal performance of a bullet is greatly impacted by how stable it is.
All hunting bullets are some form of a hollow point and require hydraulics to enter the bullet to cause it to deform properly. Whether it is tipped, hp, or exposed lead tipped. The tipped bullet needs the tip to get out of the way for the hydraulics to enter the bullet and cause it open properly. The hp bullet is already open and needs the hydraulics to enter to open properly. The lead tip bullet basically already has the fluid in the hp. The lead acts as the hydraulic. In all of these cases the bullet must stay aligned with the point forward on impact and stay that way after impact for the hydraulics to continue to push into the hp cavity. The faster the bullet is spinning the longer it will stay point oriented forward. As soon as the bullet makes contact the rotational vel decreases rapidly. As soon as it is slowed enough to cause the bullet to tip or yaw then no longer is the hp of the bullet oriented in the direction of travel and no longer can the hydraulics push into the nose of the bullet and cause it to deform. If a bullet is marginal in stability it can still be very accurate but may not impact with the point fully in line with the bullet travel inhibiting its ability to deform. This is a major reason for when we see a non expanded bullet that looks like a banana.
Though our testing hunting with a bullet that has less than a 1.5sg is not a good idea. 1.5sg should be considered a minimum for good terminal performance. I believe this for all bullets. The higher the sg of a bullet the deeper it will penetrate before it tips over and stops working correctly. The lower the sg the higher the probability of a bullet failure.
Minus the way this thread started, it can still be a good learn for us all.
Steve
Jeffpatton00
Well-Known Member
I appreciate Steve's fact-filled post, data like this can be used by us all, or at least by me, to improve my skills. Opinion is always interesting, but facts make me better. thx, Steve.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
I shot a 45-70 for a lot of years on big game and I'd say the results should be expected, a 45-70 is more akin to a high power arrow than a high power rifle round, to just straight up pole ax something with a 45-70 I shot 300gr soft hollow points and this would rip an elk down with a shot through the lungs, I caught one once and it was the size of a silver dollar. Shooting anything like a round nose or flat nose and a lung shot things would just stand there for round after round, I put 5 though the chest of a white tail doe at 50 yards and she stood there, its just punching 45 cal holes through. The heavier bullets or non hollow point will run through an elk length wise but you'd better shoot through the shoulder is your looking for consistent knockdown. I would completely expect a beef to just stand there and take rounds till their lungs finally fill or collapse.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
Your statement was simply factually incorrect. One of the things that makes this amongst the best hunting related sites on the internet is the simple fact that inaccurate or incorrect statements will be quickly challenged and corrected.
It isn't rude to point out errors and it is useful to all to do so.
There are many, many thousands of posts in various threads on this site discussing terminal performance related to a host of different bullets.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
Naah, not dangerous really it's just a reflection on how the odd and off the wall are the things that often get the most reaction.
When something it is common we just accept it as "this is the way things are".
azsugarbear
Well-Known Member
Just curious as to the type of bullet used. If it was lead, then you have a lot of different possibilities. Pure lead will tend to flatten out / mushroom / deform a little when used at normal black powder velocities and range. However, many manufacturers find that working with pure lead takes more time than using lead that has a little tin or antimony mixed in with it. These types of leads are / can be much harder than pure lead and rarely deform at any normal black powder velocity.
PS - Been a member here since 2005. There was a time on this site when criticizing or castigating others was simply prohibited. IMO, calling someone's ethics into question has no place on this board. I appreciate the OP's willingness to share in the interest of learning together.
PS - Been a member here since 2005. There was a time on this site when criticizing or castigating others was simply prohibited. IMO, calling someone's ethics into question has no place on this board. I appreciate the OP's willingness to share in the interest of learning together.
HARPERC
Well-Known Member
Wild Bill G
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2016
- Messages
- 304
From what we learned reading Steve's post the OP's friends 45-70 should have flattened that cow quicker. I agree with what Sreve wrote and this is why I wonder what happened with those 300gr .458 Leverevolution in that case. The bullets should have expanded as well as they should have there was plenty of velocity at that range. Even if the bullets never opened 3 would have been close to a 1.5 inch hole for blood to flow out of the system. That alone should have dropped blood pressure real fast and ended the matter.
I do not want to sound cruel but I personaly would like to have had more 300gr .458 bullets tested in this matter. That cow would be roughly the size of a big moose it would be nice to know which bullet to use for him.
I have loaded the Hornady 325gr levrevolutions in my 45-70 leaves me wondering now did I choose the right bullet.
I do not want to sound cruel but I personaly would like to have had more 300gr .458 bullets tested in this matter. That cow would be roughly the size of a big moose it would be nice to know which bullet to use for him.
I have loaded the Hornady 325gr levrevolutions in my 45-70 leaves me wondering now did I choose the right bullet.
As an example of an animal going down drt without cns damage (see Steve`s post) ...I was sitting in a rockpile one morning and a buck came trotting down section line toward me, 400, then 200, shot him behind the shoulder at 25 yards. 257 wby with factory 100 gr Hornady SP. Knocked him over and dead out. When i skinned him I was shocked. The bullet didnt penetrate the ribs on the entrance side, and there was a terrible bruise the size of a dinner plate. Needless to say it was a learning experience for me....
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
A 45-70 just does not have the "Shazam" many are used to, still one of my favorites especially in a bolt action so you can run them hard. You really have to think of it as an arrow with a micro blade if you shoot stuff behind the shoulder with most bullets, the only one I found that worked behind the shoulder and work awesome was the 300 flat nose hollow point, other than that shoot them through the shoulder.
Last edited:
Longtooth32
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2015
- Messages
- 591
This thread really went off the rails...
I am going to have to agree with Steve of Hammer bullets...
I smacked my bull with a 170 gr Berger EOL out of my 270 Wby. It was about 55 degrees down bubble on a rocky ledge...250 + yards...
Magnetospeed at the muzzle is 3225fps...
Have to add this in the 270 thread...
Pic is of the opposite of the impact zone...
I am going to have to agree with Steve of Hammer bullets...
I smacked my bull with a 170 gr Berger EOL out of my 270 Wby. It was about 55 degrees down bubble on a rocky ledge...250 + yards...
Magnetospeed at the muzzle is 3225fps...
Have to add this in the 270 thread...
Pic is of the opposite of the impact zone...
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WildRose
Well-Known Member
Interesting read.
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