shooting a running deer

[toddc]

Wow I guess its my day to catch hell on here. OP. I mistook your post. I apologize. You have never shot at a running deer and yet were asking about it which I ASSumed(3 letters lol) that you must be seeing a few.
You also stated you killed a bunch of gaggers. Shooting a moving deer is a real good way to end up with a 160" deer you thought was 190" which oughta be reason enough not to do it. Add in safety and ethics and you have a no brainer (IMHO). Its just too hard to tell what a deer with seconds of viewing time is especially on a rear view.
The other thing I tried to tell you is they can many times be stopped instead of just blasting away. My personal success is much higher stopping them than trying to connect on a running deer. I didnt mean YOU were unethical....far from it since you dont shoot at them. My point was why START something that has 20 good reasons not to. Sorry if I came across as an *** I ASSumed your were asking because you werent aware of how to stop a deer or that its something we should only rarely do.

 

[rick523]

There's lots of houses, cows, barns, tractors, pickups, horses, trailers, and a few people in SW KS.

Shooting even in the general direction of any of them is dangerous and can cost your guide a great lease or much more.

Not sure about KS law, but in some states the outfitter and guide can each be held liable in a civil action or even face criminal charges if you commit a game violation or gun crime while on a guided hunt.

Having been a guide and outfitter off and on for most of the last 30 years I can promise you, such things can and do occur.

I know there are people in Ks.and eveything that goes with them I was only eluding to the fact that he keeps adding facts waiting for someone to say it was ok to assult his client. Which IMHO I don't feel it was. Still waiting for name of his outfitting service.

 

[toddc]

There's lots of houses, cows, barns, tractors, pickups, horses, trailers, and a few people in SW KS.

Shooting even in the general direction of any of them is dangerous and can cost your guide a great lease or much more.

Not sure about KS law, but in some states the outfitter and guide can each be held liable in a civil action or even face criminal charges if you commit a game violation or gun crime while on a guided hunt.

Having been a guide and outfitter off and on for most of the last 30 years I can promise you, such things can and do occur.

Even if I didnt face criminal charges I would lose my leases if someone saw us shooting at a running animal. Its frowned upon. If I lose one lease I will probably lose them all.
Yes if my client kills someone I am liable criminally. The shot he got punched for was not dangerous but he was still swinging on the deer and it was at some point GOING TO GET THAT WAY. It really doesnt matter I told him to stop and he didnt and then I did the next best thing I could think of. I was going to grab the gun but didnt think that was too bright either.

I may have overreacted but I was raised in an era when if someone screamed in your ear to quit firing a high powered rifle you did it. Everyone griping at me needs to think about what they would do in my situation. A call to cease fire is a pretty serious matter....the guy had no clue why I was yelling dont shoot in his ear...coulda been I saw a human or just dont like running shots.

We hunt 1 on 1 for a reason....no one out here will let someone they dont know hunt on thier land. After seeing some of the responses on here I can see why.

And to give the devil his due the guy had been an asshat all day and then pulled this...if he hadnt been an *** the whole day I might have tried something else. Its hard to figure how to handle a guy firing a high powered rifle 2 ft away from you sometimes.

 

[crazyhorse]

Please. I didnt threaten to bury anyone gawd. I did point out that you are hunting on the guides home turf and all that that brings with it. If you do something that a guide dots your eye over ya probly oughta chalk it up to experience and call it a day. Your guide lives where you are hunting. Period. They are most likely related to or friends with the whole county. The hulks statement that he would whoop the guides *** would get him into a lot of trouble with a lot of people. You are relying on that person to keep you alive and your gonna beat his ***? A guide can lose a customer ...can you lose your life?
I guess the point is that you should act like a human being and remember that the guy who is guiding you often has your life in his hands. I mean for real a guide could just LOSE YOU if he wanted to or screw you over by putting you in the last place on earth a deer will walk by or move your scope or bla bla bla. Your hunt and sometimes life is in thier hands.
And yes there are times when clients have to be disciplined or booted or whatever it takes to keep your business running on an even keel and keep your other clients from being disturbed.
If youve never had to boot a customer you havent run that many clients thru or your real lucky or dont have prohibitions against drinking.
Some people I just wont put in the field with a gun and me or an employee and we never discover that until they are here. I personally would wonder about any outfitter who has never booted anyone. Either they wont admit it or they are reaaaaaal lucky. Or they may not have the sense to know when someone is an accident waiting to happen.
Guiding mass quantities of people in the field is not as easy as some of you may assume and sometimes you have to balance the customer always being right with a real moron who could care less about you or the game being hunted.
Sorry if you guys dont like the reality of the business but thats it.

1. "If you do something that your guide dots your eye over ya probably ought to chalk it up to experience and call it a day". NOT! Unless I got drunk and found his wife, there is NO reason a guide should ever dot my eye. Having said that I'm not gonna be an Internet tough guy here, but if a guide EVER dots my eye one of us is leaving with a well whipped ***!

2. "Remember that the guy who is guiding you often has your life in his hands". Wrong again, get over yourself. Unless you plan on shooting me in the back or sucker punching me you DO NOT have my life in your hands! I'm paying you for access and local knowledge of the area I'm hunting. I realize you probably run across some pretty helpless people but don't lump us all in this category. You never know what someone's background is so don't assume that everyone is an idiot. It's been my experience that only arrogant or insecure people do this (see a trend here?).

3. As far as your reason being that he was swinging towards a farm house or barn, you certainly shouldn't punch anyone to try and gain control! What if it was a glancing blow or he could just take a punch and he actually did hit the barn because of your actions or even worse out of reaction turned the gun on you!
I can guarantee you that I have instructed more people with firearms in a week than you have in your whole career. There are ways to control a dangerous person, and punching them is NOT on the list! You said you were 2 feet from this person and obviously close enough to hit them so what's wrong with a hand on the shoulder to control them from turning towards you while at the same time pushing the firearm off course in a safe direction. Unless the shooter is committing an intentional act they will most always remove their focus from the shot and give it to the person stepping in.

I certainly understand that in your line of work that you encounter some less than capable outdoorsman and even worse shooters. However, I would have to think that most people who care enough to spend a wad cash on an animal they probably don't have in their hometown are mostly capable hunters. They are just looking for a change of scenery. You are correct to stay in control for safety purposes but dead wrong for punching someone in a crisis. If you think I'm over reacting then I will wait for the day you punch the wrong person and get a good arse whipping. I will be real curious of your opinion on how to deal with an incident after that.

Lastly if you rely on guiding for a living, get over yourself! You are not the only person in the world capable of making it outside for more than hour. I would venture to say there are a lot of people who are even more capable than you! It is also very likely that you will never know who they are unless the need arises for them to prove it. I realize you probably fancy yourself as a cowboy but that kind of John Wayne crap is for the movies.

I'm not normally this opinionated but your stupid act and continued arrogance in support of it rubbed me just a little wrong.

 

[WildRose]

Horse if we all gave every detail of every story on the first post our average post here would be longer than most of Len's articles.

Todd comes off as an *** and brash frequently even though he's probably a pretty nice guy.

I get accused of the same frequently but then I am an *** HA!

In this case having "been there" myself on more than one occasion I could see the rest of the story without him going into every detail.

When I was a kid in a similar situation I accidentally killed a 1066 international and that was damned expensive. I'm just lucky the farmer wasn't on it.

 

[toddc]

I know there are people in Ks.and eveything that goes with them I was only eluding to the fact that he keeps adding facts waiting for someone to say it was ok to assult his client. Which IMHO I don't feel it was. Still waiting for name of his outfitting service.

Rick I am sorry I didnt write a 20 page story on the whole fiasco. I am not adding facts to make it ok. I guess where you are from it is OK to not heed a cease fire command screamed into your ear from 2 ft away. There were about 300 reasons for him to stop.
The deer was with a doe who was trying to stop.(still in rut)
A wounded deer in little blue at dark is bad news.
There were actually 2-3 houses in the GENERAL AREA.
Running shots are low %.
We have a 100% "dont shoot unless told to including follow ups" rule that is gone over about 50 times. This is mainly due to shooting dinks but has other reasons such as safety and ethics or restricted deer.
He had pulled off of the sticks and was offhand.

Whatever reason someone tells you to quit shooting you need to stop when you hear it not when you get darn good and ready. Try not obeying a command like that coming from a cop.

I have thought about it myself and wondered if I should have tackled him or grabbed the gun but how would a gun being wrestled by two people, one of whom was obviously a little out of it have ended. Sometimes its easy to monday morning quarterback a situation that involves guns.

I still wanna hear what a better way to stop him was? Maybe I was wrong. I still dont know anything else I could have done. What would you do in that situation? How are YOU going to stop a guy YOU are RESPONSIBLE FOR from shooting till he's in the mood to quit?

 

[chucknbach]

"I have a 100% guaranteed way to NEVER MISS A RUNNING SHOT!!!!!

Don't pull the trigger. Simple isn't it?

Ask yourself a few questions. Why am I always seeing running deer? Why wouldnt I just try to stop them instead of a hail mary wounding shot?

If you are seeing deer running often there is something wrong with your hunting not your shooting. Figure that out first. Then learn to stop them. I use a nasal kinda fawn sound or a whistle or hell a yell if needed. Its better to try to stop them and fail than just start blasting.

That being said the best running practice is a coyote. If not I have seen pulleys rigged to vehicles and other means for movers. MMost g uys who are good wingshots can shoot running. Back in the day I shot a lotta jackrabbits also which I got pretty good at. Luckily the experience required to get good at running shots will teach you they arent worth taking much past 100yds or at unwounded game."


LET'S SET THIS RECORD STRAIGHT:

First off, I have hunted all my life and lost one nice buck and it still haunts me.

Second. I hunt BUCKS only and I shoot only when I'm sure it is a CLEAN KILL
I NEVER BLAST AWAY.

Third. I don't see many running bucks, but would like to be able to
make a clean kill if i decided to shoot, which I have refrained from doing.

I am a hunter not a killer. I or my companions will not tolerate a killer in or midst
The termination of any animal that can feel pain deserves the greatest respect
nothing less will do.

LAST: I have hunted all over North America and have harvested many trophy
class bucks and I TAKE OFFENSE TO YOU COMMENTS SIR.

duke

Must be one of those new age hunters. Hate to tell you the whole point of hunting is to KILL. It saddens me to see the sensitive man theory bleeding into the hunting. If you aren't out to kill something why hunt? Just take a picture like your fellow tree huggers do. Sucks to see the de-nutting of America.

First big game kill at 13, antelope at 100yds full run, shot through the heart. No practice.

 

[toddc]

1. "If you do something that your guide dots your eye over ya probably ought to chalk it up to experience and call it a day". NOT! Unless I got drunk and found his wife, there is NO reason a guide should ever dot my eye. Having said that I'm not gonna be an Internet tough guy here, but if a guide EVER dots my eye one of us is leaving with a well whipped ***!

2. "Remember that the guy who is guiding you often has your life in his hands". Wrong again, get over yourself. Unless you plan on shooting me in the back or sucker punching me you DO NOT have my life in your hands! I'm paying you for access and local knowledge of the area I'm hunting. I realize you probably run across some pretty helpless people but don't lump us all in this category. You never know what someone's background is so don't assume that everyone is an idiot. It's been my experience that only arrogant or insecure people do this (see a trend here?).

3. As far as your reason being that he was swinging towards a farm house or barn, you certainly shouldn't punch anyone to try and gain control! What if it was a glancing blow or he could just take a punch and he actually did hit the barn because of your actions or even worse out of reaction turned the gun on you!
I can guarantee you that I have instructed more people with firearms in a week than you have in your whole career. There are ways to control a dangerous person, and punching them is NOT on the list! You said you were 2 feet from this person and obviously close enough to hit them so what's wrong with a hand on the shoulder to control them from turning towards you while at the same time pushing the firearm off course in a safe direction. Unless the shooter is committing an intentional act they will most always remove their focus from the shot and give it to the person stepping in.

I certainly understand that in your line of work that you encounter some less than capable outdoorsman and even worse shooters. However, I would have to think that most people who care enough to spend a wad cash on an animal they probably don't have in their hometown are mostly capable hunters. They are just looking for a change of scenery. You are correct to stay in control for safety purposes but dead wrong for punching someone in a crisis. If you think I'm over reacting then I will wait for the day you punch the wrong person and get a good arse whipping. I will be real curious of your opinion on how to deal with an incident after that.

Lastly if you rely on guiding for a living, get over yourself! You are not the only person in the world capable of making it outside for more than hour. I would venture to say there are a lot of people who are even more capable than you! It is also very likely that you will never know who they are unless the need arises for them to prove it. I realize you probably fancy yourself as a cowboy but that kind of John Wayne crap is for the movies.

I'm not normally this opinionated but your stupid act and continued arrogance in support of it rubbed me just a little wrong.

I guess that you need to understand some things about guiding. If a guide screws up someone can die.
Bad treestand steps.
Bad treestand.
Bad harness.
Bad front tire on a hired hands truck.
Bad food.
Lost medication at airport.(maybe isnt guides fault but still his problem)
Running board with ice on it(just a concussion and broken eye socket)
Heart attack.
Horses(do I even need to go there or does everyone not understand this)
Holes for 4 wheelers to fall into.
4 wheelers by themselves.
Rattlesnakes in pit blinds.(mothballs)(good cover scent also)
Heatstroke.
Washboard roads. Blind curves that end in a canyon. Drunk hunters road hunting.
Hypothermia. (I was left in a blind all day after being told I would be picked up at 11am. It was -0.)And yeah I built a fire.
Getting truck stuck in a snowstorm.
Getting shot by some other client(never seen an AD?)
Leaving a knife in a backpack without a sheath and flopping down to shoot on the pack.
Stepping out of a tree because you just whacked a gagger.(that was me)
Ad nauseum.

When its your place you might be ready for anything but when you spend $$ you expect that I thought of all these things. No the client isnt an idiot its not his job to watch out for this nor does he have a year to prepare for it.

Yes you are relying on someone to keep you alive on your trip. That is the 1st rule of guiding. Bring the customer back alive. A widow wont be happy even if hubby killed a gagger.

And yes 90% of guys who pay to hunt are just fine and can handle themselves fine....but even that guy is a dead man if you hang a treestand wrong.

Sorry I ****ed the whole world off on the 1st day of the year and Im definetly not right all of the time but sometimes you need to look at the other fellows view also. Lots of guys die hunting and sometimes thats because they had a crappy guide.

 

[toddc]

Really? A guide punches me, I'll burry him where he fell and I was a guide at one time. Respect should go all around as far as I'm concerned. Your the f***ing guide not the god. Don't tell them what shot they can take just put them on the game! F***ing know it all guides **** me off.

I love this attitude of "since I paid I can do whatever I want". Wow. Would you kill your hunting partner if he slugged you for being a jackass? Or just a guide?

We have a lot of deer that are off limits. PERIOD. Its what the whitetail world is coming to. Its what has to be done to have the deer we have. Its why we have a 1 on 1 rule. Because people feel since they paid $$$ they can just kill whatever they want. And if they dont like what they killed they'll just not tell anyone and blast another one.

And yes I am the deity when it comes to when you pull a trigger.....unless you want to write a check to a landowner for a deer that he has a 100k kill fee on.

So when you were guiding you just let hunters do whatever they wanted.....how'd that work out for ya?

 

[WildRose]

Enough already guys, this is Len's house, not a bar.

Take it outside if you want to have a ****ing match.

Respect our host.