Okay....the G7 of .224 I get.....shedding little to no weight on impact...I understand too....but where do you get a "MANHOLE COVER" with such a low SD ?
Sectional Density or BC from really Big Game?
- Thread starter M118LR
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Not so much now that I'm in Florida and Polar Bears have been checked off my bucket list.
I found my 50 to be one of lightest recoiling guns I own. I've even had a 14 year old young lady shoot it multiple times. To heavy to pack anywhere....by far....but felt recoil....naàaaaaaah!
memtb
Well-Known Member
It's a "thin" manhole cover…..but very aerodynamic!
memtbYou must not have been in NW Florida lately... We had near polar weather recently... Well... It felt that way to us anyway.
Gday m118LR
I'm not a fan of high sd pills these days for DG
Meplat is the most important part & shape of it
Plus the design of the pill to withstand various situations or should say cover bases we May encounter not just oh I'll wait for that shot to occur cause I've yet to see a critter fully do what i wantguess I'm just impatient 
Basics first off that I start on
How much penertration do you require & not only DG I personally use this for
What resistances will one encounter
Angles
Skull / teeth
Knuckle joints / ribs & big bones
Hide type soft or hard & foreign matter in/on it
Paunch or gut & what diet the critter lives on
Skeleton traits eg do ribs overlap or not
etc
Old school thoughts & still works well of big high SD pills but these on the whole are somewhat restricted on the velocity part
& going lighter increasing velocity gets to a tipping point of you'll suffer lack of penertration eventually & delayed killing which has us going back to the heavier high SD pills which is smart imo
Regardless of material or combination of materials these mushroom type pills somewhat mimic the true solids of a flat meplat displaces more tissue than a round nose
Now move to the ones I like & that's the shedding but the vast majority of people are still back thinking on needing weight to get the job done ( to light is a bigger concern if you go to light )
This is the one that gets people somewhat confused as how can a lot lighter pill out penetrate the heavier
It's not only the penetrating part it's the speed @ which the pill does it in the critter that's the key as some of these shedding are really no more than a true solid but without the speed & Pill weight to keep on driving deep plus petals are really the key you can get into a world of hurt
375 cal or your 9.3 which is basically the same really on all the pills that I've used that are commercially available I think your probably better going to the original concept of the higher SD pills if penertration is required now if it's a little less penertration can be used eg not a racking shot through paunch on a bovine you've got a few shedding that can now do a better job in a lower weight as the petals do a greater amount of damage than the stock standard mushrooms
Now if it's total penetration on a shedding the best I've seen is the raptor & will out penetrate &heavier mushroom pill most times
Eg the 375 cal 275dg raptor will out penetrate the 300&350 gr Barnes most times
But the raptors in these midweight just lacks the petal mass or more importantly the ability to hold the petals close to the shank that they get a free ride & do a lot of penetration where once the petals get outside of a coke can end wound width ( a touch bigger) the petals although they cut they just fail to go as far & only little wounds compared to the bigbores of petals that follow a long way in the " coke can " wound channel as I call it
Now step up to the bigger calibers & my little baby the 500 Jeffery put the 475 gr raptors in & push them fast watch it shut bovines down quicker than anything else I've used ( but can be improved upon imo off results I've gained but not commercially available yet )
Now tried going fast with the copper shedding in big calibers & those are disasters yet put just in the crease or like they are very effective but nose over they do on wrong angles
Here's a 475 gr .510 cal raptor end to end a old cow after a knuckle shot which just folded her & others with equally good results & most won't make it past 4/5 seconds on these shots
Copper & I better not mention the name as I'll get labeled againon similar shots with 450 gr or 456 gr you will see a marked difference in preformance & out to 30 seconds or more is often observed
move to the more pill friendly placed shots
Kinda Broadside through the leg bones first
Here's a comparison
475gr raptor
450 gr no namebelow
I notice a few have talked elephant & I can see the merit for a first shot of a shedding or mushroom for these big critters but I'm also in the camp as others have stated a solid best
I don't want to rely on my ph to follow up or more importantly Imo it's all good in theory until a charge occurs then you'll wish you didn't have that shedding or mushroom in as it may only be one shot you'll get off & no compromises should be accepted for these beasts imo & that's from this muppet who likes to push the envelope to see what occurs
Yep Other ways to do it imo rather than putting your ph trackers & self in potetially harms way
Bc lastly is interesting & one that I'm not so shut off too in the big calibers & don't care to much on the middle to small chamberings down
( velocity brackets /impacts are one I've paid a fair amount of attention to over the years )
2500 plus impacts in the Jeffery is pretty cool but 2700 plus impacts is something to behold
Here's some comparisons of the raptors without tip
With tip
I can push the Jeffery a little quicker lol but please don't think this is a goal for a individual to try & obtain as the rifle has been fitted for myself where my son & some other's struggle to hold on to this combo
& every rifle is different so work up loads & you'll find your limits
Just how I look @ things & ea to one's own thoughts on these big bores muscle memory & being comfortable with that combo is the utmost importance & the Jeffery is my limit as I become to slow on the 2nd shot with anything bigger
Cheers
I'm not a fan of high sd pills these days for DG
Meplat is the most important part & shape of it
Plus the design of the pill to withstand various situations or should say cover bases we May encounter not just oh I'll wait for that shot to occur cause I've yet to see a critter fully do what i want
guess I'm just impatient Basics first off that I start on
How much penertration do you require & not only DG I personally use this for
What resistances will one encounter
Angles
Skull / teeth
Knuckle joints / ribs & big bones
Hide type soft or hard & foreign matter in/on it
Paunch or gut & what diet the critter lives on
Skeleton traits eg do ribs overlap or not
etc
Old school thoughts & still works well of big high SD pills but these on the whole are somewhat restricted on the velocity part
& going lighter increasing velocity gets to a tipping point of you'll suffer lack of penertration eventually & delayed killing which has us going back to the heavier high SD pills which is smart imo
Regardless of material or combination of materials these mushroom type pills somewhat mimic the true solids of a flat meplat displaces more tissue than a round nose
Now move to the ones I like & that's the shedding but the vast majority of people are still back thinking on needing weight to get the job done ( to light is a bigger concern if you go to light )
This is the one that gets people somewhat confused as how can a lot lighter pill out penetrate the heavier
It's not only the penetrating part it's the speed @ which the pill does it in the critter that's the key as some of these shedding are really no more than a true solid but without the speed & Pill weight to keep on driving deep plus petals are really the key you can get into a world of hurt
375 cal or your 9.3 which is basically the same really on all the pills that I've used that are commercially available I think your probably better going to the original concept of the higher SD pills if penertration is required now if it's a little less penertration can be used eg not a racking shot through paunch on a bovine you've got a few shedding that can now do a better job in a lower weight as the petals do a greater amount of damage than the stock standard mushrooms
Now if it's total penetration on a shedding the best I've seen is the raptor & will out penetrate &heavier mushroom pill most times
Eg the 375 cal 275dg raptor will out penetrate the 300&350 gr Barnes most times
But the raptors in these midweight just lacks the petal mass or more importantly the ability to hold the petals close to the shank that they get a free ride & do a lot of penetration where once the petals get outside of a coke can end wound width ( a touch bigger) the petals although they cut they just fail to go as far & only little wounds compared to the bigbores of petals that follow a long way in the " coke can " wound channel as I call it
Now step up to the bigger calibers & my little baby the 500 Jeffery put the 475 gr raptors in & push them fast watch it shut bovines down quicker than anything else I've used ( but can be improved upon imo off results I've gained but not commercially available yet )
Now tried going fast with the copper shedding in big calibers & those are disasters yet put just in the crease or like they are very effective but nose over they do on wrong angles
Here's a 475 gr .510 cal raptor end to end a old cow after a knuckle shot which just folded her & others with equally good results & most won't make it past 4/5 seconds on these shots
Copper & I better not mention the name as I'll get labeled again
on similar shots with 450 gr or 456 gr you will see a marked difference in preformance & out to 30 seconds or more is often observed move to the more pill friendly placed shots
Kinda Broadside through the leg bones first
Here's a comparison
475gr raptor
450 gr no name
below I notice a few have talked elephant & I can see the merit for a first shot of a shedding or mushroom for these big critters but I'm also in the camp as others have stated a solid best
I don't want to rely on my ph to follow up or more importantly Imo it's all good in theory until a charge occurs then you'll wish you didn't have that shedding or mushroom in as it may only be one shot you'll get off & no compromises should be accepted for these beasts imo & that's from this muppet who likes to push the envelope to see what occurs
Yep Other ways to do it imo rather than putting your ph trackers & self in potetially harms way
Bc lastly is interesting & one that I'm not so shut off too in the big calibers & don't care to much on the middle to small chamberings down
( velocity brackets /impacts are one I've paid a fair amount of attention to over the years ) 2500 plus impacts in the Jeffery is pretty cool but 2700 plus impacts is something to behold
Here's some comparisons of the raptors without tip
With tip
I can push the Jeffery a little quicker lol but please don't think this is a goal for a individual to try & obtain as the rifle has been fitted for myself where my son & some other's struggle to hold on to this combo
& every rifle is different so work up loads & you'll find your limits
Just how I look @ things & ea to one's own thoughts on these big bores muscle memory & being comfortable with that combo is the utmost importance & the Jeffery is my limit as I become to slow on the 2nd shot with anything bigger
Cheers
In the article, https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html I linked earlier much of what you say conforms to the research. Impacts above 2650 fps with calibers at or greater than .358 should produce hydrostatic Shock. Yet as impact velocities drop below 1800 fps at those diameters softer projectiles are required if reliable expansion is to be achieved. So expansion vs penetration seems to be combined with velocity at target impact. I encountered this very problem when in the planning stages of a hunt on the ice pack. With subzero temps, high winds, (which would need to be coming nearly directly in my face to get within 300 yards of my prey) and elevations at roughly sea level, the amount of recoil required to propel calibers of .366 or better with an SD of .3 or more and an impact velocity of 2600+ fps made rifle weights suitable to carry for days that ensured proper Projectile placement a quandary. Eventually I settled on a CRF .300 Win Mag with a 22 inch barrel and a 220 grain Nosler Partition. ( Final outcome was impact at just less than 200 yards with a one shot stop, that was less than spectacular but less than 10 seconds to conclusion.) I haven't used solids since I left the Veld. But there really isn't much game with a thick enough hide in North America to justify their use. What say you?
Going way off topic here. In my travels around the my home state and around the house I tend to see more Fox squirrels in mature hardwoods. White and Red Oak, Hickory, Pecan seem to be their favorites but they will hang around pines and feed on the cones too. What amazes me about them is that they seem incredibly slow. Especially when compared to a grey squirrel. You would think they would be easy pickings for predators. But they are smart and wary and know how to hide. They somehow manage to do very well avoiding hawks and other predators. Grey squirrels I'll shoot all day long. I've only shot one fox squirrel and that was by mistake. I enjoy seeing them and watching them too much. Plus they aren't the pest the grey squirrel is.
So I must ask, semi auto or bolt? Other than blowing dust everywhere from the prone position, how does she handle the pressure wave (overpressure) upon discharge? Eventually I resorted to using a football style mouth guard. Yet shooting a hundred rounds in a practice session is probably limited to sponsored shooters? Just imagine humping that lightweight everywhere everyday during a deployment.
IridiumRed
Active Member
As mentioned before, high BC usually cones w high SD since the bullets tend to be long and heavy. High bc bullets though w the ling pointy tips not nearly as good as round/flat noses for straightline penetration tho.
One other difference, if talking about high BC bullets, almost all are going to have a boat tail, and if you have traditional bullet construction (cup and core, nonbonded), ive always heard that a boattail bullet will have harder time keeping core and jacket together, vs solid base bullet. Seems logical to me (tho that doesnt always mean much when it comes to ballistics, external or internal). Bonding core and jacket together probably makes significant difference.
Also, high bc bullets often have hollow point tips or plastic tips, for aerodynamics, and those can help increase expansion too... which is typically the opposite of what you want for large heavy game (where little, or at most controlled expansion is the name of the game). Same w high bc bullets often (but not always) having thin jackets.
On a different subject, the "great ivory hunters" are fascinating characters in many ways, but remember they only talk about how many elephants they recovered... never hear about how many they shot. The % of shot to recovered... well, its a # that wouldnt be acceptable now. Not going to pass moral judgements on them, chalk it up to being in a different time and place, but even if it were legal today, a man couldnt go out and have what we consider success shooting the small bores on elephant (like the 6.5s and 7mms).
Today you cant go into a herd of elephants and take 50 shots at maybe 40 elephants, and as long as you end up with a big enough pile of them to get a bunch of ivory, then call the day a success. (As a HUNTER anyways, if the operation was one of culling a herd, might be different). Nowadays w trophy fees, if you shoot an animal, you pay the fee... regardless of whether animal is recovered (i think thats a good policy for responsible herd management).
Having a bunch of shots that ended in a non-recovered animal wouldnt be acceptable today, so the performance of the 6.5s and 7mms on elephants might not considered acceptable today either. Change the rules of the game, change the results, change what works.
Oh, for what its worth, ive made multiple trips to africa (never to hunt, just for business). But i ended up making friends with a PH or two (friends of friends, nobody famous) and would hang out and have some drinks w them. Always fascinated by the stories of the great ivory hunters, so was a topic of frequent discussion, so part of what i said above was influenced by what those said.
Taylors book on african hunting and rifles/cartridges still one of the best books written on the subject, and a fascinating insight into an otherwise mysterious world
One other difference, if talking about high BC bullets, almost all are going to have a boat tail, and if you have traditional bullet construction (cup and core, nonbonded), ive always heard that a boattail bullet will have harder time keeping core and jacket together, vs solid base bullet. Seems logical to me (tho that doesnt always mean much when it comes to ballistics, external or internal). Bonding core and jacket together probably makes significant difference.
Also, high bc bullets often have hollow point tips or plastic tips, for aerodynamics, and those can help increase expansion too... which is typically the opposite of what you want for large heavy game (where little, or at most controlled expansion is the name of the game). Same w high bc bullets often (but not always) having thin jackets.
On a different subject, the "great ivory hunters" are fascinating characters in many ways, but remember they only talk about how many elephants they recovered... never hear about how many they shot. The % of shot to recovered... well, its a # that wouldnt be acceptable now. Not going to pass moral judgements on them, chalk it up to being in a different time and place, but even if it were legal today, a man couldnt go out and have what we consider success shooting the small bores on elephant (like the 6.5s and 7mms).
Today you cant go into a herd of elephants and take 50 shots at maybe 40 elephants, and as long as you end up with a big enough pile of them to get a bunch of ivory, then call the day a success. (As a HUNTER anyways, if the operation was one of culling a herd, might be different). Nowadays w trophy fees, if you shoot an animal, you pay the fee... regardless of whether animal is recovered (i think thats a good policy for responsible herd management).
Having a bunch of shots that ended in a non-recovered animal wouldnt be acceptable today, so the performance of the 6.5s and 7mms on elephants might not considered acceptable today either. Change the rules of the game, change the results, change what works.
Oh, for what its worth, ive made multiple trips to africa (never to hunt, just for business). But i ended up making friends with a PH or two (friends of friends, nobody famous) and would hang out and have some drinks w them. Always fascinated by the stories of the great ivory hunters, so was a topic of frequent discussion, so part of what i said above was influenced by what those said.
Taylors book on african hunting and rifles/cartridges still one of the best books written on the subject, and a fascinating insight into an otherwise mysterious world
I have quite a few books on African hunting but my favorites are all by Peter Hathaway Capstick. He embellishes a bit but he can spin a story with the best of them.
Just in case you think you must have a rifle propelling big tough bullets to take dangerous game you might want to read Tigrero by Sasha Siemel. He killed over 30 jaguars with a spear and many many more with several rifles most notably a Winchester Model 1892 long before the advent of the internet and the common knowledge that you need a shoulder cannon to deal with dangerous game.
By the way his sidearm of choice was a 357 magnum revolver which he seemed to think was plenty powerful.
In case you think the jaguar doesn't qualify as dangerous game consider that it's significantly larger than a leopard and approaches the female lion in size and it is known to turn man eater quite easily and has a nasty habit of hunting the hunter.
Peter Hathaway Capstick includes a chapter in one of his books about Sasha Siemel and it's quite captivating. That was where I first heard of him.
Having said all the above I DO recommend using an appropriate rifle and cartridge for all large and/or dangerous game but long before we had our modern firearms most of them were killed with primitive weapons. Of course many of those dangerous animals came out on the winning end of such hunts. LOL
Just in case you think you must have a rifle propelling big tough bullets to take dangerous game you might want to read Tigrero by Sasha Siemel. He killed over 30 jaguars with a spear and many many more with several rifles most notably a Winchester Model 1892 long before the advent of the internet and the common knowledge that you need a shoulder cannon to deal with dangerous game.
By the way his sidearm of choice was a 357 magnum revolver which he seemed to think was plenty powerful.
In case you think the jaguar doesn't qualify as dangerous game consider that it's significantly larger than a leopard and approaches the female lion in size and it is known to turn man eater quite easily and has a nasty habit of hunting the hunter.
Peter Hathaway Capstick includes a chapter in one of his books about Sasha Siemel and it's quite captivating. That was where I first heard of him.
Having said all the above I DO recommend using an appropriate rifle and cartridge for all large and/or dangerous game but long before we had our modern firearms most of them were killed with primitive weapons. Of course many of those dangerous animals came out on the winning end of such hunts. LOL
Buffalobwana
Well-Known Member
Don't overthink this.
The reason we hunt dangerous game, is because it's dangerous. Not much danger at 400 yards. The fun happens under 40 yards. And it gets "funner" the closer you are to danger.
That said, Brown/Grizzly Bear can often be taken at distance.
Bullet construction is far more important than BC or SD. Pick a quality bullet constructed for the game.
The reason we hunt dangerous game, is because it's dangerous. Not much danger at 400 yards. The fun happens under 40 yards. And it gets "funner" the closer you are to danger.
That said, Brown/Grizzly Bear can often be taken at distance.
Bullet construction is far more important than BC or SD. Pick a quality bullet constructed for the game.
That is what would get me. The noise and pressure wave. I get concussion symptoms, blurred vision and headaches mainly, from muzzle blast. That's one reason I don't like brakes. Too many concussions on the football field plus a wreck or too is what Dr. said caused this. Back then if you made it to the right huddle and could carry out your assignment that's all that mattered to me or anyone else.So I must ask, semi auto or bolt? Other than blowing dust everywhere from the prone position, how does she handle the pressure wave (overpressure) upon discharge? Eventually I resorted to using a football style mouth guard. Yet shooting a hundred rounds in a practice session is probably limited to sponsored shooters? Just imagine humping that lightweight everywhere everyday during a deployment.
No personal experience with large and dangerous game. Other than hogs which I don't find to be that dangerous. But I would say SD and bullet construction would be most important. Particularly bullet construction.
Bolt action, Bushmaster 50. Muzzle break is well designed on this one and keeps the blast up front where it belongs...not so much with their first brakes..Gun is 30lbs...without scope and without a loaded mag.So I must ask, semi auto or bolt? Other than blowing dust everywhere from the prone position, how does she handle the pressure wave (overpressure) upon discharge? Eventually I resorted to using a football style mouth guard. Yet shooting a hundred rounds in a practice session is probably limited to sponsored shooters? Just imagine humping that lightweight everywhere everyday during a deployment.
