Scope for 500+ yards

[Sully2]

I'm having a .257 Weatherby Magnum built for hunting/targets. I will be using it on groundhogs, coyotes, and deer anywhere from 300 out and im trying to decide on the glass. I'm leaning towards a Swarvoski Z5 in 3.5-18x or 5-25x. What would better suit my needs?

The 5-25X. Only thing that keeps me from having one is the $$$$

 

[bruce_ventura]

...what is it about the larger objective that magnifies blur in field (mirage) conditions.

Turbulent air is often characterized as giving a good image up to a certain diameter, and blurred above that diameter. The worse the turbulence, the smaller the characteristic diameter over which the image is good. Under typical daytime conditions at a range, this diameter is usually less than 25 mm for targets at 100 yds and beyond. That diameter is smaller than most scope objectives. The larger the scope aperture, the more blur.

 

[T3-OleMan]

Bruce,
In Dec. 2008 I purchased (newer version came out in 2009) Leupold VX III LR, 4.5-14x50_30mm tube B & C and I have added a "Leupold Alumina Intensifier Yellow 50mm Objective". ​

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/328543/leupold-alumina-intensifier-yellow-50mm-objective-matte

My question only applies to the the FIRST & LAST 5 min. of shooting time. Does that yellow lens cover help me as much in that low light as it does the rest of the day or did it contribute to my failure to identify the # of points on the Bull @ 100 yds in the last 5 min. of shooting time on a bluebird day, that caused me to go to the Zeiss-victory-diavari ?​

Also, If you are me, would you take it off the Lupe and put it on the Zeiss-victory-diavari-4-16 x50-t-fl 30mm tube for helping with the low light situation now?​

I plan to do what ever you would do in this situation!!!!!! My logic tells yes, but I will default to your OPTICS knowledge!​

Thanks​

 

[bruce_ventura]

...Does that yellow lens cover help me as much in that low light as it does the rest of the day or did it contribute to my failure to identify the # of points on the Bull @ 100 yds in the last 5 min. of shooting time on a bluebird day, that caused me to go to the Zeiss-victory-diavari ?

Also, If you are me, would you take it off the Lupe and put it on the Zeiss-victory-diavari-4-16 x50-t-fl 30mm tube for helping with the low light situation now?​

The short answer is I'm not sure, but I doubt it hurt you much. While I use color filters at work a lot, I haven't used them with sport optics. However, I would definitely use a yellow filter during the day if I had one that fits my scope. I would also remove it during dusk and dawn just to be sure. In fact, writing this response convinced me I should go buy one.

The long answer has three parts: First, the yellow filter cuts off the violet and some of the blue parts of the spectrum, which includes most of the light scattered from particles in the atmosphere. So using the filter increases image contrast during bright daylight. Chromatic aberration and atmospheric turbulence are also worse at these shorter wavelength colors, so the filter is very likely to help reduce image blur as well. This is all good.

At dusk and dawn, however, atmospheric turbulence and scatter of sunlight are less of an issue, so the benefits of using the yellow filter are diminished.

Second, during daytime the peak sensitivity of the eye is green, which exactly matches the spectrum of the sun.
As the eye adapts to darkness the peak sensitivity shifts to blue. It takes a long time for the eye to fully adapt to darkness, so it may not happen often during legal hunting hours. However, hunting in the woods in a canyon under a moonless, overcast sky, the eye probably has enough time to fully adapt to darkness before legal hunting ends. Likewise, if one were in a spotting position before dawn, then the eye probably would still be dark adapted when legal hunting time starts. In that case the filter would reduce brightness - a lot.

Third, the filter may reduce the contrast of big game against vegetation. Big game animals are various shades of brown, which is a mix of all primary colors, with an extra dose of red. Vegetation is mostly green, with some brown. The yellow filter cuts out some blue, which is part of the animal's fur color and not part of green vegetation. I suspect that the increase in daytime image contrast discussed above more than compensates for any small loss of contrast for brown fur against green vegetation.

Therefore, I would use the yellow filter during daytime and remove it during dusk and dawn.

By "bluebird day" do you mean after a fresh snowfall? If so, then your eyes were probably not dark adapted at the end of legal hunting, and the filter probably did not reduce brightness.

 

[T3-OleMan]

Bruce,
Great job. Just so I don't "cluster" it up, I'll let it stay on the VX III in the box.
Thanks a bunch and I hope others will benifit from your Info also! By "bluebird day" I mean only 'not a cloud in the sky'.

Short story:
At this little part time 30 min after sunset honey hole -NE corner of a small Mt.- in 2005 my Cuz and I stopped by on the way back to the truck since we had 30 min of shooting left and a STORM came over the Mt. and after NEAKING up to the meadow 2 cows (30 to 40 yds apart) heard us or saw us and called to us but we could not even see them with my 15 year old VX II 4-12 and Cuz had a Kahle. It did not even rain on us but it was so black & we are looking up the meadow at the sky at 100 yds and could not even see the outline of the ELK. Unbelievable. That is why I used "bluebird day" in my example. If~n the naked victory-diavari want do it, the man don't want me to have that ELK. That is some kind-a-good glass!!

**** good answers.....thanks again....OH!-we were looking up hill toward the sky at 30 min to go VS down hill into the black abiss, would that change anything in your answers???? The sun leaves this meadow 1.5 hours before sunset. Forgot to include all that....sorry oops.

 

[bruce_ventura]

...OH!-we were looking up hill toward the sky at 30 min to go VS down hill into the black abiss, would that change anything in your answers???? The sun leaves this meadow 1.5 hours before sunset. Forgot to include all that....sorry oops.

Hard to say. With the sun on the other side of the mountain, and the time being past sunset, your eyes could have been fully dark adapted. If I undestand your story, Cuz had a Kahles and coudn't see the elk either. I assume he did not use a yellow filter. Why?

It does seem like the scope let you down. If you could see the elk with the naked eye, the scope on 4X-6X should have let you see more detail, not less.

 

[paphil]

So was it one half hour after sundown or one and a half hours after sundown? When it is too dark, it is too dark! Luckily the game commission is not real strict on this or we would all have to carry light meters to read lumens of available light. If you feel the need to shoot in the dark, get a night vision scope. Safety and common sence are the issues here. In stormy and cloudy weather it gets dark earlier. On the northeast side of the mountain , it gets dark earlier. Don't risk yours and others safety by taking poor shots.

 

[T3-OleMan]

....If I undestand your story, Cuz had a Kahles and coudn't see the elk either. I assume he did not use a yellow filter. Why?

It does seem like the scope let you down. If you could see the elk with the naked eye, the scope on 4X-6X should have let you see more detail, not less.

bruce,

In 2005 Cuz and I were trying to beat this big storm back to the truck before dark and I decided to swing above a creek 1/4 mile and ck this meadow out. When we eased out to the edge it was pure black and we still had 30 more min of legal shooting left,yellow filter would not have helped. If we had got there with 35 min of legal shooting we would have filled our either sex tags. It was so black we could not see the ground or the ELK with our eyes or our scopes or binos. It was full moon that night and when we got back the next morning we saw that the ELK had been there and like most of the full moon meadows they probably left about 4am.
What made me go to the Diavari was my solo hunt same meadow 2010 no clouds and a couple mins left of LEGAL SHOOTING TIME and at 100yds broad side walking across a 75yd wide meadow I could not count the points but could see about 30+-" of mass that could have been a spike or legal 4x4. The 4 cows came out 10 min before he did and I could have counted his points if he had been in the group. I solved that problem with the Diavari....now only storms or fog can do me in....then there is the dreaded MISS! Oh well.

So was it one half hour after sundown or one and a half hours after sundown? When it is too dark, it is too dark! Luckily the game commission is not real strict on this or we would all have to carry light meters to read lumens of available light. If you feel the need to shoot in the dark, get a night vision scope. Safety and common sence are the issues here. In stormy and cloudy weather it gets dark earlier. On the northeast side of the mountain , it gets dark earlier. Don't risk yours and others safety by taking poor shots.

Bruce,
Great job. Just so I don't "cluster" it up, I'll let it stay on the VX III in the box.
Thanks a bunch and I hope others will benifit from your Info also! By "bluebird day" I mean only 'not a cloud in the sky'.

Short story:
At this little part time 30 min after sunset honey hole -NE corner of a small Mt.- in 2005 my Cuz and I stopped by on the way back to the truck since we had 30 min of shooting left and a STORM came over the Mt. and after NEAKING up to the meadow 2 cows (30 to 40 yds apart) heard us or saw us and called to us but we could not even see them with my 15 year old VX II 4-12 and Cuz had a Kahle. It did not even rain on us but it was so black & we are looking up the meadow at the sky at 100 yds and could not even see the outline of the ELK. Unbelievable. That is why I used "bluebird day" in my example. If~n the naked victory-diavari want do it, the man don't want me to have that ELK. That is some kind-a-good glass!!

**** good answers.....thanks again....OH!-we were looking up hill toward the sky at 30 min to go VS down hill into the black abiss, would that change anything in your answers???? The sun leaves this meadow 1.5 hours before sunset. Forgot to include all that....sorry oops.

papil,

"So was it one half hour after sundown or one and a half hours after sundown?"

It was neither!!! My CO shooting hours end every day 30 min after official sunset.


I am so sorry that it was confusing.
The Meadow is in the shade for the last 2 hours of legal shooting time!

1.5 hours before official sunset plus .5 hours after official sunset = 2 hours in the shade and legal shooting time.

So you can visualize the meadow:
It is 150yds X 75yds and is slightly up hill all the way, with a 75 to 100 foot elevated impenetrable scrub oak saddle across the upper end that acts as a back stop, for safety, then the sky is above the scrub oaks. To be hunted properly this small meadow requires the wind FLIP to occur before you can sneak up to the bottom of it. This usually-without a storm near by-happens at or about official sunset. Experience has taught me on this meadow to only hunt it the last 30 min of LEGAL shooting time.
That way I'm safely & legally hunting the wind. Morning hunts here are a no good.

 

[bruce_ventura]

Ok I get it now. In 2005, you had cloud cover, sunset behind a mountain, and a full moon not yet up. The filter would have reduced brightness because your eyes were fully dark adapted. In 2010, the filter probably made little difference, but it's impossible to say for sure. In 2012, I don't see how you could be better equipped!

Good luck hunting. Send pictures.

 

[sdkidaho]

Originally Posted by gnlvr22
I'm having a .257 Weatherby Magnum built for hunting/targets. I will be using it on groundhogs, coyotes, and deer anywhere from 300 out and im trying to decide on the glass. I'm leaning towards a Swarvoski Z5 in 3.5-18x or 5-25x. What would better suit my needs?

The 5-25X. Only thing that keeps me from having one is the $$$$

I notice one of the reticles available for that Swarovski is basically the same one that is on the Huskemaw scope. The Swarovski is a little more money and doesn't appear to come with the custom turrets.

I'm still trying to decide what I want to put on my own .257 Weatherby. I have a Viper PST FFP on my .300 WSM, just wondering if I want to spend a little more and try something different, or spend a lot more and just go NF.

The way Greyfox keeps talking about the Huskemaw, I'm certainly intrigued by the idea of getting one. I do however see a lot of negative comments about them. Granted, it appears to be from guys that have never used one, so I'm trying to take that with a grain of salt. Len seems to like them also.

Basically I don't want to drop more than $1000 and not like what I get...

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

I notice one of the reticles available for that Swarovski is basically the same one that is on the Huskemaw scope. The Swarovski is a little more money and doesn't appear to come with the custom turrets.

I'm still trying to decide what I want to put on my own .257 Weatherby. I have a Viper PST FFP on my .300 WSM, just wondering if I want to spend a little more and try something different, or spend a lot more and just go NF.

The way Greyfox keeps talking about the Huskemaw, I'm certainly intrigued by the idea of getting one. I do however see a lot of negative comments about them. Granted, it appears to be from guys that have never used one, so I'm trying to take that with a grain of salt. Len seems to like them also.

Basically I don't want to drop more than $1000 and not like what I get...

Have you considered a used NF scope? You will save some cash, scope will retain value very well, and certainly rugged/reliable. Most of their scopes are SFP reticles and I noticed you already had a PST FFP scope if that matters. After shooting a FFP scope with matching turrets/reticles, I would find a "customized" elevation turret very frustrating. What happens when I go from 2000 feet to 9000 feet on a hunting trip out west? How do I make corrections for temp or that my ammo shoots 40fps faster at this temp. How do I adjust for the angle of the terrain? I understand the idea, to make it simpler and faster. It probably works well at reasonable ranges, probably a bit better than my ACOG scope. But in the end, it makes my head hurt more than learning the right way to do it the first time. Maybe I just do not get it.

A scope with matching turrets/reticle has the option of being very quick if using holds only and a laminated "dope" card taped to stock for the anticipated conditions. If more time is available, turrets can certainly be dialed according to the card. If more time still (or more precision necessary), break out the ballistic calculator, kestrel, cosine angle indicator, bubble level, and get your spotter set up with spotting scope with matching mil based reticle to maximize precision and speed of second shot.

The SWFA SS line is also pretty good for the money if trying to keep costs down. The illuminated 5-20 can be found often for $1300 new in box. They also seem to be a pretty easy scope to sale if you do not like it.

 

[nateisw]

Have you looked at the Bushnell Elite 6500s? Probably not in the same league as the NFs, but it will keep you well under $1000 and probably do everything you need it to do. My hunting rifle wears an Elite 4200 and I'm happy with it.

 

[JGorski]

I'm having a .257 Weatherby Magnum built for hunting/targets. I will be using it on groundhogs, coyotes, and deer anywhere from 300 out and im trying to decide on the glass. I'm leaning towards a Swarvoski Z5 in 3.5-18x or 5-25x. What would better suit my needs?

I shot at a 600yd match last year with my Burris Signature set at 20X, had no problems seeing the 5 or so inch bull at that range, so Id say look for something around that range. Black Diamonds are very nice scopes if youre looking for an american made scope and Outstanding optics.

 

[bruce_ventura]

...I'm leaning towards a Swarvoski Z5 in 3.5-18x or 5-25x. What would better suit my needs?

This thread got hijacked a bit. I'll clarify something I said earlier.

As I posted before, I've been seeing a trend that glare performance is worse at all magnifications as the scope magnification range increases. That means there is a drawback to getting more magnification than you really need. Swarovski scopes have low glare to begin with, so you may be OK with the Swarovski 5-25X. For your caliber and application, I would not recommend going higher than 20X on the high side with a lesser brand.