Scope for 500+ yards

I inspected the 3-12X42 and 5-20X50 Huskemaw scopes at the 2012 SHOT Show. The 3-12X had above average glare performance and below average off-axis chromatic aberration. On the whole, optical performance was average. The 5-20X had slightly below average performance in both glare and off-axis chroma. I would recommend this model for target shooting at a range, but not for big game hunting. The 3-12X model would be the better choice for deer hunting due to higher optical performance and brightness at dusk and dawn. I would not hesitate to use a 12X mag scope for PDs, yotes and deer.
 
I have had a Vortex 6-24x50mm PST FFP MOA scope with a Vortex Custom Turret for a couple of years now and can not see how you need to spend anymore for a more expensive scope. If you get a 4-16 power scope which is a fine scope, but if you need more power and don't have it OH WELL. I use 24 power a lot especially when I want to hit a small target which could be a prairie dog or to put a bullet behind a deers ear at 200 yds. if it is all you can see of a once in a life time trophy.

Below is a picture of a 1,000 yd. target that I shot with my 6-24x50 PST FFP MOA scope. Three 5 shot groups which every shot would have hit the boiler room of an antelope from my hunting rifle.

Testing new Vortex custom turret. - Georgia Outdoor News Forum

Field test: Vortex Viper 6-24x50mm PST MOA FFP scope. - Georgia Outdoor News Forum

joseph

PS: Here is a list of PST scopes, but you can buy them from many retailers:

SWFA Vortex Rifle Scopes Vortex Viper PST Rifle Scopes
 

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I inspected the 3-12X42 and 5-20X50 Huskemaw scopes at the 2012 SHOT Show. The 3-12X had above average glare performance and below average off-axis chromatic aberration. On the whole, optical performance was average. The 5-20X had slightly below average performance in both glare and off-axis chroma. I would recommend this model for target shooting at a range, but not for big game hunting. The 3-12X model would be the better choice for deer hunting due to higher optical performance and brightness at dusk and dawn. I would not hesitate to use a 12X mag scope for PDs, yotes and deer.

I recall from prior posts that you have several years of professional experience designing optics for military applications, and have developed tests that enable you to to assess scopes for various characteristics, even when in enclosed environments like the Shot Show floor. Given that, I would be very interested in your opinion of what the best commercially available scope is for 1000 yard big game hunting, considering all factors. More importantly which scope you use for LR big game hunting. Also, I have three scopes that I use for 90% of my LR hunting

Leupold MK4 8.5 x 25, Mildot
Nightforce NXS 5.5x22, NPR2
Huskemaw Blue Diamond 5x20

How would you access these scopes, applying your tests? I have developed my own
preference over the years, but would be very interested in your viewpoint. Thanks.
 
Greyfox said:
...I would be very interested in your opinion of what the best commercially available scope is for 1000 yard big game hunting, considering all factors. More importantly which scope you use for LR big game hunting. Also, I have three scopes that I use for 90% of my LR hunting

Leupold MK4 8.5 x 25, Mildot
Nightforce NXS 5.5x22, NPR2
Huskemaw Blue Diamond 5x20

How would you access these scopes, applying your tests? I have developed my own
preference over the years, but would be very interested in your viewpoint. Thanks.

Best scope? Personal preference for features is too big a factor to assert one as the best. For big game hunting, I rank optical performance high in priority. That said, I haven't seen a Zeiss Diavari I didn't like. :)

I wouldn't call myself a long range hunter. 400 yds is a long shot for me. That's mainly because I hunt the coastal mountain range in California. It's very brushy terrain and the mountains are simply smaller than the Seirras or Rockies. Most of my long range shooting has been for work at 600-1,000 yds. For reasons I can't say, I'm limited to using a Horus reticle. Currently I'm using a US Optics scope.

I'm on travel today and my notes are at home. You listed three different reticles, and one scope has a BDC turret. Personal preference for reticle and elevation adjustment would be a big factor. Frankly, I'm not a fan of BDC turrets.

I don't recall having evaluated the Leupold MK4 8.5 x 25. It would not be my first choice due to the high (25X) mag ratio. Glare performance at all magnifications gets worse as the magnification range increases. Glare performance is important because glare limits image contrast. Also, I prefer a lower mag than 8.5X on the low end. Otherwise, I like MK4 scopes and spotters.

I don't have a good sense of the Nightforce NXS 5.5x22 scope because the room lighting was poor above that booth at 2012 Shot. At previous shows I found the Nightforce optical performance to be average to above average for that price point.

I already commented on the Huskemaw 5-20. Optically, it's not in the the same league as either the Leupold or Nightforce. So there you have it. I guess my preference is for the Nightforce NXS 5.5x22, although it is heavy IIRC.

Which one do you prefer?
 
I inspected the 3-12X42 and 5-20X50 Huskemaw scopes at the 2012 SHOT Show. The 3-12X had above average glare performance and below average off-axis chromatic aberration. On the whole, optical performance was average. The 5-20X had slightly below average performance in both glare and off-axis chroma. I would recommend this model for target shooting at a range, but not for big game hunting. The 3-12X model would be the better choice for deer hunting due to higher optical performance and brightness at dusk and dawn. I would not hesitate to use a 12X mag scope for PDs, yotes and deer.

You lost some of us ! Could you explain "off axis chromatic aberration" and "glare performance"? Don't really know how you could pick up a scope inside a building and come up with these conclusions. Good enough for target but not for hunting?Most of the target guys I shoot with might think the opposite! I would put either of these scopes up against the best in target or hunting, low light or bright glaring light. I've shot in all these conditions and haven't been disapointed yet! If you ever get the chance, look through one side by side on the range with any other scope, that is the only fair way to judge their respective abilities!
 
Best scope? Personal preference for features is too big a factor to assert one as the best. For big game hunting, I rank optical performance high in priority. That said, I haven't seen a Zeiss Diavari I didn't like. :)

I wouldn't call myself a long range hunter. 400 yds is a long shot for me. That's mainly because I hunt the coastal mountain range in California. It's very brushy terrain and the mountains are simply smaller than the Seirras or Rockies. Most of my long range shooting has been for work at 600-1,000 yds. For reasons I can't say, I'm limited to using a Horus reticle. Currently I'm using a US Optics scope.

I'm on travel today and my notes are at home. You listed three different reticles, and one scope has a BDC turret. Personal preference for reticle and elevation adjustment would be a big factor. Frankly, I'm not a fan of BDC turrets.

I don't recall having evaluated the Leupold MK4 8.5 x 25. It would not be my first choice due to the high (25X) mag ratio. Glare performance at all magnifications gets worse as the magnification range increases. Glare performance is impoYrtant because glare limits image contrast. Also, I prefer a lower mag than 8.5X on the low end. Otherwise, I like MK4 scopes and spotters.

I don't have a good sense of the Nightforce NXS 5.5x22 scope because the room lighting was poor above that booth at 2012 Shot. At previous shows I found the Nightforce optical performance to be average to above average for that price point.

I already commented on the Huskemaw 5-20. Optically, it's not in the the same league as either the Leupold or Nightforce. So there you have it. I guess my preference is for the Nightforce NXS 5.5x22, although it is heavy IIRC.

Which one do you prefer?

While I believe they are all excellent scopes, I have now installed the Huskemaw 5x20 on my LR rigs. The 5x low power is good for the close shots. I have not seen optical differences in low light , mirage, or strong sunlight between the three brands. Since I do hunt 500-1000 yards, I have a strong preference for turrets. When I hunted at the distances you hunt, I favored a ballistic reticle. It's just my preference, but I do believe the Huskemaw's size, weight, reticle design, and turret reproducibility provides the best balance of capabilities. On a more subjective note, all of my best long range kills have been made with the Huskemaw. I am very confident with this scope and that success is a big factor.
 
I have to agree with Greyfox! That said, it is not that Huskemaw is a better scope, I don't claim it to be better. What makes Huskemaw stand out from the rest is the method of setting up the turret. When done correctly, it is the most accurate system available for the average hunter. Dial, dope the wind, shoot! There are a lot of shooters out there that have shot their data and are just as accurate. Truth of the matter is, you cannot use a generic BC and velocity and even come close to comparing to a correctly calculated Huskemaw turret. There are people and companies out there who have stolen the patented process because it is so good. until you shoot with it, you will never understand!
 
Well this past weekend i bought a 3-12X42 Huskemaw with the intention of mounting it on my 300 win mag that i use for hunting. I went with the 3-12 due to the amount of bush hunting i do here in Alberta. 5 power on the low end is a little high Currently i have a 3-12-52 Kahles multi zero. I brought the huskemaw home and compared the 2. First thing i found, was at low light i totally could not see the crosshairs against any spruce or pine. This was approx with 45 minutes of legal shooting light left. I then continued looking at a large of heard of deer and elk in our hay field. Wow was i shocked with the clarity difference. The Kahles was far superior. I was given that Kahles a few years ago from a hunter we had come up. I new it was clear but never really have compared it.

Needless to say i returned the Huskemaw the next day. For hunting in alberta in, the crosshair is way too thin for any animals along the tree line in low light.

I had the 2 scopes set on 5 power and found the magnification to look quite different. The Kahles looked like it was zoomed in substatially more??? Maybe it was me.

I am possibly gonna take a look at the 5-20 and compare it. I know it has a thicker crosshair. Hopefully it is a little brighter at low light.

Has anyone compared the 3-12 against the 5-20?
 
All I can sugest is to be sure and focus the reticle with the eye piece ring, the very end of the scope toward your eye. This only focuses the reticle and must be done for each persons individual eye. The reticle can almost disapear even in good light if this adjustment is over looked.
 
I'm having a .257 Weatherby Magnum built for hunting/targets. I will be using it on groundhogs, coyotes, and deer anywhere from 300 out and im trying to decide on the glass. I'm leaning towards a Swarvoski Z5 in 3.5-18x or 5-25x. What would better suit my needs?

..............................The 3-12X model would be the better choice for deer hunting due to higher optical performance and brightness at dusk and dawn. I would not hesitate to use a 12X mag scope for PDs, yotes and deer.

Since you are going to the trouble to do a custom build should you also consider these 2 conditions {brightness at dusk and dawn} that bruce mentioned, to a greater degree? Agree with most all that has been said ref the requirements.
However, Better consider the LOW # also. It has to be a 2, 3 or 4 to gather MAX light for your scope to let you see if it is a LEGAL or ILLEGAL shot those first or last 1 to 3 mins. of the shooting period. Buck or Bull same difference. If you can't count the points on one side you can waste from $3k to $10k and have to wait till next year. My time came twice in the last 18 consecutive years and I ain't going to put up with it any more. I upgraded my Nikon 800 RF and Lupe VXIII 4X14-50LR B&C cause neither would let me count the points on my Bull with 2 min to go @ 100 yds on a bluebird day. I was LOW on the NE corner of the MT....Sheyet happens.

Got back to SC and after doing my homework got a Leica CRF 1600 (better glass and light gathering-up to 1600yds) and, like bruce, haven't seen a Zeiss Diavari I didn't like. :)

It came down to the Swarvoski Z 6 (OR) and I picked the German Zeiss-victory-diavari-4-16x50-t-fl, both were $2,200 Georges.

Here is a more detail post --its # 5
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f18/nf-swaro-zeiss-scopes-wwyb-69398/#post484012

Good luck.
 
You lost some of us ! Could you explain "off axis chromatic aberration" and "glare performance"? Don't really know how you could pick up a scope inside a building and come up with these conclusions. Good enough for target but not for hunting?Most of the target guys I shoot with might think the opposite! I would put either of these scopes up against the best in target or hunting, low light or bright glaring light. I've shot in all these conditions and haven't been disapointed yet! If you ever get the chance, look through one side by side on the range with any other scope, that is the only fair way to judge their respective abilities!

The guy you are talking about has the scientific eyes that can do these tests in a store. He is absolutely amazing. I would believe everything he tells you. Unless you think he is full of c#&p. I think he is just a troll looking to pass his time here.

joseph
 
All I can sugest is to be sure and focus the reticle with the eye piece ring, the very end of the scope toward your eye. This only focuses the reticle and must be done for each persons individual eye. The reticle can almost disapear even in good light if this adjustment is over looked.

I tried focusing the reticle multiple times...no luck. A buddy just bought the 5-20 so i will do some comparing and maybe go that route.
 
You lost some of us ! Could you explain "off axis chromatic aberration" and "glare performance"? Don't really know how you could pick up a scope inside a building and come up with these conclusions. Good enough for target but not for hunting?Most of the target guys I shoot with might think the opposite! I would put either of these scopes up against the best in target or hunting, low light or bright glaring light. I've shot in all these conditions and haven't been disapointed yet! If you ever get the chance, look through one side by side on the range with any other scope, that is the only fair way to judge their respective abilities!

Sorry about the jargon. Yes, a good measurement of optical performance requires specialized equipment. I have that equipment but it's not portable. So I've also developed a couple of test procedures that I can do by visual inspection if the lighting is right. They're not quantitative, but they give me a good idea how the scope will perform in the lab.

The first test is for veiling glare, which is light that scatters off the interior surfaces of the scope: the tube, edges of lenses, etc. This scattered light lowers the image contrast. Glare performance is one of the big differences between good German optics, for example, and lower quality optics. German designers simply have a culture of high standards for glare performance. When you look thorugh a good German optic and the image seems to "pop" out at you, it's the absence of scattered light that gives the image such high contrast. There are other sources of scattered light, but glare is often the biggest.

My visual test requires a bright light surrounded by darkness. A streetlight at night works well. So do the halogen spot lights hanging from the ceiling in the large halls at the Sands Convention Center, which is where the SHOT Show is held. The ceiling in those halls is painted flat black. I look through the scope near, but not directly at, the bright light. My eye must be centered in the exit pupil for this test to work, so it helps if the scope is mounted on something to help me keep it aligned with my eye. Glare is then easily seen against the darkness of the sky or the black ceiling. The small conference rooms at the Sands are terrible for this test because they use indirect lighting and the ceiling is off-white.

The second test is for optical aberrations that degrade image resolution. Aberrations result from compromises in the optical design that are motivated by a need to reduce cost. Aberrations usually cause the image to be blurred as you look away from the center of the field of view. In a really good optical design these aberrations are "corrected" and the image has high resolution across the entire field of view. Again my visual test requires a bright halogen light against a dark background. When I look directly at the light, I see a rainbow effect along the edge of the light. It is usually more pronounced away from the center of field of view. With this test I'm trying to assess the quality of the optical design. I look for one type of aberrration (chromatic) that is easy to see. If this aberration is present, other aberrations are likely to be present as well.

Unfortunately, a live fire range is one of the worse places to judge the optical quality of a scope. There are a few reasons why, but the main one is that turbulence in the air is strong at most ranges and this turbulence severely degrades image resolution. Whenever there are temperature variations in the air, light rays don't actually travel in a straight line, but rather are bent, or "refracted", a tiny amount as they pass through the air. This effect causes the image to lose resolution and contrast, and is called turbulence-induced blur. Most shooters are familiar with "mirage", which has the appearance of wavy lines moving across the target image. This effect is due to the turbulent air moving across the field of view.

The longer the range, or the larger the scope aperture, or the hotter the ground temperature, or the closer to ground these light rays are, then the worse the blur becomes. High turbulence environments are typically those in which the target is near the ground and the terrain in front of the target is flat and in direct sunlight. Typical examples include prairie dog and ground squirrel hunting, and target shooting at a range.

Low turbulence environments are typically where the target is surrounded by shade and elevated above the terrain in front of the target (i.e., on a hillside) and/or the air temperature is low. Typical examples include big game hunting in hilly terrain, at dawn and dusk, or under overcast skies, especially in fall and winter when the sun is low in the sky.

So, the image seen when looking through a scope at targets at the range is usually blurred due to turbulence, not due to the optics in one scope vs another. Any difference in image "quality" between two side-by-side scopes under these conditions is probably due to the scopes having different aperture sizes. It would be much easier to see differences in optical resolution in a side-by-side test if you looked through the scopes at a target across a small valley or canyon on a cool day under an overcast sky.
 
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I agree with Bruce and T3-Oleman, the Zeiss scopes are just incredible for lowlight performance, quality of image, and ease of sight picture. My Zeiss Hensoldt 3-12x56 provides Swarovski binocular like optical performance in a very rugged design with an illumimated mil-dot reticle that is easy to see. The image literally pops into view when you put your head to the stock.

I test my scopes at night by looking at my neighbors house number across the street. It is in a very dark, non-illuminated area overhanging a brightly lit porch that can provide a significant amount of glare. With most of my scopes, the numbers cannot be read. The Hensoldt scope accomplishes this easily and the reticle can be illuminated slightly for easy visualization without blowing the view of the numbers. Viewing shrubs and vegetation, most scopes show dark blobs, the Zeiss provides enough detail/contrast to create dimension. No it is not night vision, but you would be surprised at the level of detail that can be made out in very dark conditions.

Bruce, what is it about the larger objective that magnifies blur in field (mirage) conditions.
 
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